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Trek Literature "...Good words. That's where ideas begin."

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Old November 4 2009, 01:48 AM   #151
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Re: The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing - Discuss (SPOILERS)

^ No character has actually done that, though, have they?
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Old November 4 2009, 01:56 AM   #152
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Re: The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing - Discuss (SPOILERS)

Christopher wrote: View Post
^I am staggered that you'd even suggest that assassination of a foreign leader would be an "option" for United Earth.
Isn't that how Federation won the Dominion war? And, no, I'm not a right wing radical. I'm actually a lefty pacifist discussing a fun work of fiction, nothing more.

Christopher wrote: View Post
That's not an option, it's a crime, and an obscene overreaction to a political difference of opinion.
Don't you think that not honoring a mutual defense treaty is a lot more than just a political difference of opinion?

Christopher wrote: View Post
United Earth is better than that.
Oh, I don't know.. If Sisko could live with it...
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Old November 4 2009, 01:59 AM   #153
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Re: The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing - Discuss (SPOILERS)

Mach5 wrote: View Post
Isn't that how Federation won the Dominion war?
Hardly. Odo ended the war by saving the lives of the Founders -- and, in the process, saving the Federation from committing an unforgivable crime in the name of fear.


Don't you think that not honoring a mutual defense treaty is a lot more than just a political difference of opinion?
Perhaps, but it absolutely does not justify murder. I mean, come on, why are we even discussing this???
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Old November 4 2009, 02:12 AM   #154
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Re: The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing - Discuss (SPOILERS)

Christopher wrote: View Post
Mach5 wrote: View Post
Isn't that how Federation won the Dominion war?
Hardly. Odo ended the war by saving the lives of the Founders -- and, in the process, saving the Federation from committing an unforgivable crime in the name of fear.


Don't you think that not honoring a mutual defense treaty is a lot more than just a political difference of opinion?
Perhaps, but it absolutely does not justify murder. I mean, come on, why are we even discussing this???
Because modern American political culture is one in which all ideas are equal -- even ideas that are patently untruthful or offensive -- and all options are equally valid, even if they violate centuries of moral precepts.
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Old November 4 2009, 02:14 PM   #155
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Re: The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing - Discuss (SPOILERS)

Christopher wrote: View Post
Mach5 wrote: View Post
Isn't that how Federation won the Dominion war?
Hardly. Odo ended the war by saving the lives of the Founders -- and, in the process, saving the Federation from committing an unforgivable crime in the name of fear.
I was referring to the assassination of Senator Vreenak, without which the Romulans would never have joined the Federation against the Dominion.

Sisko could have done the right thing and charge Garak with murder, but he didn't, did he?

And he didn't do it out of fear of possible Romulan retaliation, but because Federation's survival was at stake, and something like that is worth much more than one man's clear conscience and peace of mind.

Christopher wrote: View Post
Don't you think that not honoring a mutual defense treaty is a lot more than just a political difference of opinion?
Perhaps, but it absolutely does not justify murder. I mean, come on, why are we even discussing this???
Were discussing justification of a murder?
I was merely arguing that a secret intelligence agency like Section 31 (United Earth's equivalent of CIA or Mossad) would have been expected to take such course of action into consideration.
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Old November 4 2009, 02:35 PM   #156
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Re: The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing - Discuss (SPOILERS)

Mach5 wrote: View Post
Christopher wrote: View Post
Mach5 wrote: View Post
Isn't that how Federation won the Dominion war?
Hardly. Odo ended the war by saving the lives of the Founders -- and, in the process, saving the Federation from committing an unforgivable crime in the name of fear.
I was referring to the assassination of Senator Vreenak, without which the Romulans would never have joined the Federation against the Dominion.
The Federation didn't do that, Garak did. And I disagree with your assumption. Just because that method succeeded in bringing the Romulans into the war, that doesn't mean it was the only method that could've succeeded. Such a statement is impossible to prove without testing every conceivable method, which is obviously not feasible unless you have access to an unlimited number of parallel timelines.

Besides, just because an evil act happened to have a relatively positive result in one case, that doesn't even remotely prove that the same evil act should be a viable option in every similar case.


Christopher wrote: View Post
I was merely arguing that a secret intelligence agency like Section 31 (United Earth's equivalent of CIA or Mossad) would have been expected to take such course of action into consideration.
And I find it bizarre that your thoughts went there. What T'Pau did was not the kind of act that would prompt that kind of discussion in any rational, non-evil organization. T'Pau didn't declare war against Earth, she just chose a different method of honoring her mutual-defense obligations than the one Earth would've preferred. You're blowing her actions absurdly out of proportion here.
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Old November 4 2009, 03:55 PM   #157
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Re: The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing - Discuss (SPOILERS)

Mach5 wrote: View Post
I was merely arguing that a secret intelligence agency like Section 31 (United Earth's equivalent of CIA or Mossad) would have been expected to take such course of action into consideration.
Section 31 is in no way equivalent to those organizations. The CIA and Mossad are legitimate intelligence gathering groups that have a clear chain of command and, more importantly, are accountable to their governments.

Earth does have its own such organization, it's called Starfleet Intelligence. THEY are the legitimate organization here, not a rogue cell like Section 31 which can, in the most absolute and literal sense, do whatever the hell it wants to.
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Old November 4 2009, 04:07 PM   #158
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Re: The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing - Discuss (SPOILERS)

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Mach5 wrote: View Post
I was merely arguing that a secret intelligence agency like Section 31 (United Earth's equivalent of CIA or Mossad) would have been expected to take such course of action into consideration.
Section 31 is in no way equivalent to those organizations. The CIA and Mossad are legitimate intelligence gathering groups that have a clear chain of command and, more importantly, are accountable to their governments.

Earth does have its own such organization, it's called Starfleet Intelligence. THEY are the legitimate organization here, not a rogue cell like Section 31 which can, in the most absolute and literal sense, do whatever the hell it wants to.
Even more reason for 31 to contemplate any course of action, no matter how appalling.
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Old November 4 2009, 04:27 PM   #159
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Re: The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing - Discuss (SPOILERS)

Again, I don't see any rational reason why even Section 31 would consider assassinating T'Pau in this case. It would be an insane overreaction and would do no good. Even the more corrupt S31 of the 24th century wouldn't risk an action of that magnitude unless they saw some genuine need for it, unless they saw T'Pau as a direct threat. That's not the case here. She's not attacking Earth. She's just defending it in a more passive way than they wanted. She's still an ally, even if an unreliable one. You don't murder your friends when they decline to cooperate with your wishes. You try to convince them to change their minds. Unless you're a complete sociopath. This whole assassination idea is just totally incongruous in this context. It comes out of nowhere and makes no sense. Have you even read the book?
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Old November 4 2009, 05:04 PM   #160
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Re: The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing - Discuss (SPOILERS)

Christopher wrote: View Post
You don't murder your friends when they decline to cooperate with your wishes. You try to convince them to change their minds. Unless you're a complete sociopath.
Sociopathic would be a pretty accurate way to describe Section 31, come to think of it.
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Old November 4 2009, 05:30 PM   #161
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Re: The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing - Discuss (SPOILERS)

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Sociopathic would be a pretty accurate way to describe Section 31, come to think of it.
To an extent, if we're talking about the 24th-century version. But the 22nd-century version was nowhere near as extreme or criminal. And even the 24th-century S31 isn't completely irrational, and that's what the idea of assassinating T'Pau is. Again, she's not an enemy, not a direct threat, merely a more half-hearted ally than Earth would like.

Besides, even if S31 did wish to bring about a change of leadership on Vulcan, it's ludicrous to suggest that they'd default to murder. Vulcan isn't a dictatorship where the only way to remove a leader is by death. It's a democratic, apparently parliamentary society. If they wanted to remove T'Pau from office, they'd just support her opposition, maybe engineer a scandal that would make T'Pau look bad and trigger a vote of no confidence. Defaulting to assassination would be an insane case of overkill. There is simply no reason to even contemplate it as a possibility in this case. I'm still bewildered that it was even brought up.
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Old November 4 2009, 05:37 PM   #162
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Re: The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing - Discuss (SPOILERS)

Christopher wrote: View Post
Besides, even if S31 did wish to bring about a change of leadership on Vulcan, it's ludicrous to suggest that they'd default to murder. Vulcan isn't a dictatorship where the only way to remove a leader is by death. It's a democratic, apparently parliamentary society. If they wanted to remove T'Pau from office, they'd just support her opposition, maybe engineer a scandal that would make T'Pau look bad and trigger a vote of no confidence. Defaulting to assassination would be an insane case of overkill. There is simply no reason to even contemplate it as a possibility in this case. I'm still bewildered that it was even brought up.
I also mentioned impeachment, but finding a way to discredit her would also have been an option to consider. I wasn't fixated on this assassination thing at all, I only mentioned it as a last resort, the most radical and extreme option. But still an option.

Christopher wrote: View Post
Have you even read the book?
I did, and I enjoyed it very much (though it had boring parts, like those martian chapters).

Anyway, this assassination thing went too far, I'm dropping the subject.
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Old November 4 2009, 05:48 PM   #163
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Re: The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing - Discuss (SPOILERS)

I thought the Martian chapters were very interesting. It's rare in ST that we get any sense of colonial human cultures; usually humanity is equated with Earth and a homogenized, Westernized culture. Here we actually got to see some real diversity within humanity. And it was nice to see some of the backstory of the Native American cultures seen in TNG: "Journey's End" and in VGR with Chakotay. Plus the depiction of Martian colonies and colonists clearly owes a lot to Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy, lending some welcome science-fictional texture.
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Old November 4 2009, 06:21 PM   #164
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Re: The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing - Discuss (SPOILERS)

Christopher wrote: View Post
I thought the Martian chapters were very interesting. It's rare in ST that we get any sense of colonial human cultures; usually humanity is equated with Earth and a homogenized, Westernized culture. Here we actually got to see some real diversity within humanity. And it was nice to see some of the backstory of the Native American cultures seen in TNG: "Journey's End" and in VGR with Chakotay. Plus the depiction of Martian colonies and colonists clearly owes a lot to Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy, lending some welcome science-fictional texture.
To each his own. I just wasn't interested in reading a "Jurney's End" back story, even though I loved that episode. I was actually hoping for some insight into the Romulan people's war-time state of mind. But I guess Romulan civilians were already completely used to the Empire waging a war against some distant race they knew nothing about.

I was hoping to learn more about Ejhoi Ormiin though.
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Old November 4 2009, 07:17 PM   #165
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Re: The Romulan War: Beneath the Raptor's Wing - Discuss (SPOILERS)

Christopher wrote: View Post
I thought the Martian chapters were very interesting. It's rare in ST that we get any sense of colonial human cultures; usually humanity is equated with Earth and a homogenized, Westernized culture. Here we actually got to see some real diversity within humanity. And it was nice to see some of the backstory of the Native American cultures seen in TNG: "Journey's End" and in VGR with Chakotay. Plus the depiction of Martian colonies and colonists clearly owes a lot to Kim Stanley Robinson's Mars trilogy, lending some welcome science-fictional texture.
Those Martian colonists *were* Chakotay's tribe, weren't they?

Also, am I understanding it correctly that since Mars had not yet been terraformed, the colony was completely underground?
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