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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

View Poll Results: How do you feel about Voyager?
I love Voyager, both it and DS9 are excellent 13 8.39%
I like Voyager, but I prefer DS9 56 36.13%
Voyager was okay, I have no strong feelings 27 17.42%
I disliked Voyager, DS9 was the superior show 42 27.10%
I loath Voyager, it ruined my life 10 6.45%
I'm not a Niner but I want to vote in this poll 7 4.52%
Voters: 155. You may not vote on this poll

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Old November 1 2009, 06:20 AM   #106
I am not Spock
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

I liked VOY, but DS9 I preferred. One thing I didn't like about VOY is how they defanged their own villains. Not just the Borg, but they f-ed up the 8472, the Hirogen, etc.

8472 went from badasses to friends in about 3 eps. Hirogen went from insane, Predator like killers to holodeck-whipped victims in about 4 eps.
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Old November 1 2009, 08:07 PM   #107
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

That was due to negative audience reaction more than anything else.
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Old November 1 2009, 08:26 PM   #108
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

All right, so this is the thread for bashing Voyager!

Kinggodzillak wrote:
Finally decided to give Voyager another go, and while the lack of internal continuity or any kind of continuing acknowledgement of their situation are the biggest problems, what sticks out most to me now is that the crew of Voyager are often written to be exceptionally stupid. Having realised that I'm enjoying it much more - these are the wacky antics of the stupidest group of people to ever put on a Starfleet uniform rather than a noble group of brave explorers in the tradition of Kirk and co, and the fun comes from seeing what kind of goofy misadventures they get up to week after week...


I voted that Voyager ruined my life. This isn't really true, because I never watched it very much, because it was terrible. I've seen a lot of it here and there, though, reconfirming my earlier opinions. It's worthwile only as SFDebris fodder than entertainment in its own right. I'm amazed there aren't riff commentaries for half the episodes.

I would be more forgiving if Voyager didn't go and ruin other aspects of Trek by introducing nonsense that affected, even across 70,000 light years, the good episodes from the good series. Take the Q "arc" in Voyager. It stomps all over a character and concept that wound itself up perfectly in All Good Things.

Also, transphasic torpedoes suck.
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Old November 2 2009, 12:00 AM   #109
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

Anwar wrote: View Post
That was due to negative audience reaction more than anything else.
If the writers on Voyager were responding to poor audience reaction they would have increased continuity, increased character development, had more recurring characters, the ship would have received damage as the series progressed, less technobabble, fewer dumb aggressive aliens, Harry Kim would have died (and stayed dead), Neelix would have been tortured for several months until the unbearable pain caused his heart to explode, fewer shuttles would have crashed, fewer Borg appearances, they would have explained the magically appearing torpedoes, Neelix would have been revived so he could be tortured some more, Tim Russ would have been given more to do... So it's a good thing that the producers on Voyager were willing to listen to their audience in the area where it really mattered; de-fanging their villains.
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Old November 2 2009, 12:44 AM   #110
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

TheGhoulBen wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
That was due to negative audience reaction more than anything else.
If the writers on Voyager were responding to poor audience reaction they would have increased continuity, increased character development, had more recurring characters, [...] less technobabble
They did do this much. They didn't get around to it until Enterprise, but it was obvious that show's greater degree of internal continuity and complete absence of technobabble was a conscious response to criticism of Voyager.

And I'd really be surprised if Species 8472 were defanged because of audience demand. The manner of their defanging/humanisation was rote Star Trek 101; the aggressive 'Other' alien speices are revealed to be rather reasonable folk we could probably be friends with because the writers no longer have any use for them as villains (cf: Klingons).

It's sort of obvious that aside from the "Scorpion" two-parter there's little place for this alien race, they exist solely to be the villains that are tougher than the Borg who require in Janeway making her Faustian bargain. Their interest basically is in reshaping how our heroes respond to the Borg, pretty much, and once they'd served that purpose in that arc there was sort of no further use for them.

Also they were CGI, which meant at the time you could only get a few minutes of screentime with these guys in their alien form. That's cost prohibitive and pretty much guaranteed they couldn't be major heavies on their own.
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Old November 2 2009, 02:41 AM   #111
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

TheGhoulBen wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
That was due to negative audience reaction more than anything else.
If the writers on Voyager were responding to poor audience reaction they would have increased continuity,
No one cared about that thing while the show was on.

increased character development,
Again, no one cared while the show was on.

had more recurring characters,
Too confusing for a show in 1995, no one complained about that then.

the ship would have received damage as the series progressed
Couldn't be helped, too expensive.

,less technobabble,
Again with the double standard, since ALL the Trek series had just as much of this as VOY.

fewer dumb aggressive aliens
No one complained about this back then. Hell, since their complaints were against the aliens that were more than just aggressive aliens it's more likely the opposite.

, Harry Kim would have died (and stayed dead),
And open up the can of worms of killing off an ethnic minority? Madness.

Neelix would have been tortured for several months until the unbearable pain caused his heart to explode,
No one complained about him while the show was on, and the idea of the annoying alien didn't explode until Jar-Jar Binks so this was retroactive hate.

fewer shuttles would have crashed
No one cared about this while the show was on.

, fewer Borg appearances,
The fans wanted MORE of these, they didn't become hypocrites about the Borg appearances until the show was over.

they would have explained the magically appearing torpedoes
No one cared while the show was on.

Tim Russ would have been given more to do... So it's a good thing that the producers on Voyager were willing to listen to their audience in the area where it really mattered; de-fanging their villains.
The audience was satisfied by Tuvok while the show was on, and yes the defanging was the result of viewer hypocrisy.

Look, we've had this discussion before. The audience never cared about any of this stuff, what they really wanted was for the entire crew to fall to pieces over their predicament and spend the entire series hating and plotting to murder one another. And when they weren't busy doing that, they'd totally abandon the Federations' values and become a bunch of murderous pirates who ravaged and murdered every world and species they encountered (especially the ones that were welcoming and nice to them) because that's the only "proper drama" for a show like VOY. They were PO'ed it never happened.
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Old November 2 2009, 03:45 AM   #112
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

Anwar wrote: View Post
That was due to negative audience reaction more than anything else.
Do you happen to have any statements from the writers/production team to back that up? Did they ever state they were writing in that reactive a fashion as you describe? Without evidence, this is conjecture at best.
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Old November 2 2009, 04:08 AM   #113
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

Anwar wrote: View Post
No one cared about that thing while the show was on.
I cared, and so did my Trekkie friends.

Again, no one cared while the show was on.
As above, so below.

Too confusing for a show in 1995, no one complained about that then.
I complained. Also, DS9 had plenty of recurring characters so I don't see why it would have been "too confusing for a show in 1995".

Couldn't be helped, too expensive.
You have a point here, but that doesn't mean people didn't complain about it.

Again with the double standard, since ALL the Trek series had just as much of this as VOY.
TNG arguably did. ENT and TOS had hardly any. DS9 was in the middle.

No one complained about this back then. Hell, since their complaints were against the aliens that were more than just aggressive aliens it's more likely the opposite.
I complained and so did... you see where this is going?

And open up the can of worms of killing off an ethnic minority? Madness.
Yeah, because getting rid of Kes didn't open a HUGE can of worms within a certain segment of the audience.

No one complained about him while the show was on, and the idea of the annoying alien didn't explode until Jar-Jar Binks so this was retroactive hate.
This is just a ludicrous statement, lots of people hated Neelix when the show was first run, he even put many people off watching the show.

No one cared about this while the show was on.
Nonsense.

The fans wanted MORE of these, they didn't become hypocrites about the Borg appearances until the show was over.
Nope, I hated the overuse of the Borg long before that, it started around the time of Dark Frontier.

No one cared while the show was on.
Oh really?

The audience was satisfied by Tuvok while the show was on, and yes the defanging was the result of viewer hypocrisy.
No they weren't, everyone complained about Voyager losing focus on the Small Six during the later seasons.

Look, we've had this discussion before. The audience never cared about any of this stuff, what they really wanted was for the entire crew to fall to pieces over their predicament and spend the entire series hating and plotting to murder one another. And when they weren't busy doing that, they'd totally abandon the Federations' values and become a bunch of murderous pirates who ravaged and murdered every world and species they encountered (especially the ones that were welcoming and nice to them) because that's the only "proper drama" for a show like VOY. They were PO'ed it never happened.
So you're saying that Voyager's writers de-fanged their villains because the audience demanded it, but the audience really wanted the show to become the 9 circles of hell and the writers chose not to do it? Anwar I have two words for you that I take immense enjoyment from saying:

Double standard.

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Old November 2 2009, 04:10 AM   #114
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

I believe the words you're looking for are "Mutually Exclusive."
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Old November 2 2009, 04:13 AM   #115
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

*munches on popcorn*
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Old November 2 2009, 04:26 AM   #116
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

I voted "I disliked Voyager, DS9 was the superior show", although I don't usually vote in polls where the poll question tries to assume my answer before I make it.

VOY had some decent moments, in my opinion, but after seeing a majority of the episodes, it's just not my cup of tea. I think DS9 is superior in terms of writing, production and acting. For me, there were a handful of key reasons as to why VOY just wasn't as good for me as for others.

1) Neelix - For the love of God, while I like the idea of a guide to get them through the Delta Quadrant, Neelix is not it. Don't get me wrong, I love Ethan Phillips, but Neelix the character is nails on a chalkboard to me. He's the uniquely alien guy that reminds me of an overbearing life insurance salesman. Personally, if you want to go for alien and still have a touch of endearment, I believe John Billingsley's "Dr. Phlox" pulled it off quite effectively. For me, Neelix's antics and presence just didn't work.

2) Techno Babble - I'm sorry, I didn't realize I needed a degree in P.I.O.Y.A (Pulled It Outta Your Ass) to watch the show. Yes, other series dabbled in it, mostly TNG (although DS9 had a bit), but VOY just took it to a whole new level. Each week I could guarantee there was going to be some kind of phased ionic realignment scanner that was bypassing the intramodular relay circuit and impinging upon the brown thing with the spots (that last bit's a Sgt. Bilko reference).

3) Look At My Boobs - I really like the character Seven of Nine, I do. I thought it was a solid idea. However, to grab those 16 to 34 year old demographics, they had to put her into a silver catsuit and shove her toward the camera. They made this same move in ENT.

4) Reset Button - Oh my God, people died and lives were changed! *click* "Oh look, we're back and nothing bad happened after all". I hate the reset button, because it meant the writers weren't willing to take risks to make the show more exciting. The reset button became a favorite fall guy for silly plots. God forbid there be potential drama and interaction, no, we had to reset that sucker. Let us maintain the status quo.


Those are my primary gripes with VOY, and no matter how many times I give it a chance and watch it, it's just not my cup of tea. Personally, I love ENT S3 & S4 far more than any season of VOY. Again, just my opinion.

J.
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Old November 2 2009, 05:44 AM   #117
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

TheGhoulBen wrote: View Post
I cared, and so did my Trekkie friends.

As above, so below.
Every fandom has its bizarre fringe groups.

I complained. Also, DS9 had plenty of recurring characters so I don't see why it would have been "too confusing for a show in 1995".
And was DS9 a TNG level success?

You have a point here, but that doesn't mean people didn't complain about it.
They were asking for an impossibility for a show made in 1995.

TNG arguably did. ENT and TOS had hardly any. DS9 was in the middle.
Bottom line, they all had it and VOY's reputation for loads of it was undeserved.

I complained and so did... you see where this is going?
Yeah, fringe.


Yeah, because getting rid of Kes didn't open a HUGE can of worms within a certain segment of the audience.
Get rid of the ethnic minority, or get rid of the blonde white woman. Hm, I wonder who goes?


This is just a ludicrous statement, lots of people hated Neelix when the show was first run, he even put many people off watching the show.
Nope. The hatred didn't explode into what it is now until the show ended.

Nonsense.
Yes-sense.

Nope, I hated the overuse of the Borg long before that, it started around the time of Dark Frontier.
Then too bad the audience hated all the other aliens and made the writers get rid of them otherwise VOY could've told more stories about them. As it is, the Vorg Sweeps stories all were ratings gold. Audience liked them.


Oh really?
Yeah.

No they weren't, everyone complained about Voyager losing focus on the Small Six during the later seasons.
They didn't have problems with Tuvok while the show was on.

So you're saying that Voyager's writers de-fanged their villains because the audience demanded it
Yes.

but the audience really wanted the show to become the 9 circles of hell and the writers chose not to do it?
Yeah, the audience were really unpleasable when it came to VOY, they wanted the ship to be Hell but they hated all the new stuff the writers introduced outside of the ship and forced the writers to get rid of it all. Including the things that would have made life tougher for the crew.

So basically, the audience screwed itself. Fitting, really.
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Old November 2 2009, 06:07 AM   #118
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

Anwar wrote: View Post
Every fandom has its bizarre fringe groups.
And thus Anwar explains himself, even if he's not a 'group'.
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Old November 2 2009, 06:12 AM   #119
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

Heh, I knew Niners were going to try and twist that around.
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Old November 2 2009, 09:38 AM   #120
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

Sakloth wrote: View Post
I like DS9 better than Voyager, but I followed both with dedication. I never understood the fan war. I worry for people who have such strong opinions about fiction as to take someone else's differing opinion personally.
My feelings exactly.

Kind of fun reading through the threads in both forums (forae?) on this topic, but it also reminds me of why I usually stick to watching (or reading) from the sidelines.
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