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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

View Poll Results: How do you feel about Voyager?
I love Voyager, both it and DS9 are excellent 13 8.39%
I like Voyager, but I prefer DS9 56 36.13%
Voyager was okay, I have no strong feelings 27 17.42%
I disliked Voyager, DS9 was the superior show 42 27.10%
I loath Voyager, it ruined my life 10 6.45%
I'm not a Niner but I want to vote in this poll 7 4.52%
Voters: 155. You may not vote on this poll

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Old October 26 2009, 06:01 PM   #91
Kegg
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

Anwar wrote: View Post
That's another lie. He was just as involved in DS9 as he was in the other shows he produced until around S3 or so, and even then he was involved to certain degrees.
Yeah, he was involved (though 'just as' may be debateable, he was probably more involved with ENT's first three seasons than with DS9's).

It was around that time the Fandom started using him as a scapegoat for everything they didn't like.
In fairness, he was the guy who was never keen on the Dominion War. On the other hand he was the guy said that he wanted the space station to be recognisable on the small screen from another room (so you'd immediately know what show is on); a sensibility which doubtless informed DS9's rather bizarre and unique design.

Still, most of the hate directed at Berman comes from being TPTB for VOY and ENT, rather than his TPTB during TNG and his influence on DS9.

I've never really hated the guy, but I did feel he made some good calls (famously: Getting Michael Piller into the Trek franchise, and from Piller came most of the rest of the writers who made TNG and DS9 work) and some less than good ones (wallpaper music? Egad, wallpaper music).
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Old October 26 2009, 06:23 PM   #92
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

Kegg wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
That's another lie. He was just as involved in DS9 as he was in the other shows he produced until around S3 or so, and even then he was involved to certain degrees.
Yeah, he was involved (though 'just as' may be debateable, he was probably more involved with ENT's first three seasons than with DS9's).
Well the question here is: how much was he involved? 0.0000001% may have been an exaggeration on my part, but from everything I keep hearing, his involvement seemed to amount to things like asking Behr to end the Dominion war in as few episodes as possible. I don't get the impression that he was involved in developing storylines, working with the writers, or that he had any kind of communication with the actors (see interview with NV above; also see Berman's video interview posted in General Trek a few months ago, where he didn't know the difference between Ro and Kira).

Well, I tried to to explain his strange statement about "never having done this before"...
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Old October 26 2009, 06:30 PM   #93
Anwar
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

He was trying to sound good for the interview instead of saying "Yeah, we're just doing what was done 6 years prior again."

Berman was the one who came up with the idea for the Dominion, he was the one who worked with them on the Maquis storyline, wrote some stuff himself (which means interacting with the writing staff, etc). Not knowing the difference between Ro and Kira, so he slipped some words on two characters who were originally supposed to be the same character anyways, cut the guy some slack.

Honestly, Abrams in is for several years of abuse if Berman is any indication.

And the worst part is that the ones who made him a scapegoat completely ignored the ones who were REALLY responsible for most of the VOY/ENT problems: The nameless UPN Execs who ordered the VOY staff around. They only went after Berman because he had a name.
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Old October 26 2009, 06:35 PM   #94
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

DevilEyes wrote: View Post
(see interview with NV above; also see Berman's video interview posted in General Trek a few months ago, where he didn't know the difference between Ro and Kira).
Well, I think it can be sensibly said that DS9 in the long run was the Berman era show Berman was involved in the least, but that's still a series he co-created and execrised executive producer rights over (however nominal) for the whole series run. That's not to be taken all too lightly.

As far as developing storylines goes, he was credited for "The Maquis", which was part of an interesting experiment in itself: A story idea that simultaneously gets developed on TNG and DS9 so it can become a centerpiece of a third series, VOY. But that's a pan-franchise storyline rather than one specific to DS9, and it's notable DS9 then largely ignored the Maquis until they were able to make them an internal DS9 concern with Eddington.

Well, I tried to to explain his strange statement about "never having done this before"...
But yeah, DS9 is obviously the redheaded stepchild.
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Old October 26 2009, 08:37 PM   #95
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

Personally, I don't think that Enterprise's third season was a rip-off of the Dominion War, the two had entirely different structures and personality. Serialisation and gritty story-telling were not invented by DS9.

Anwar wrote: View Post
Berman was the one who came up with the idea for the Dominion...
Really? Where did you get that from? Everything I've read and heard indicated that Piller/Behr/Wolfe came up with the Dominion with Wolfe doing a lot of the heavy-lifting in fleshing out the three races. I've never read anything to suggest that Berman was involved, he seemed to be more focused on Generations around that time.

...he was the one who worked with them on the Maquis storyline...
He didn't really work with them, he was involved with co-creating Voyager which meant he was co-creating the Maquis and it was decided to plant the seeds for that organisation in TNG and DS9.

...wrote some stuff himself (which means interacting with the writing staff, etc).
He wrote nothing on DS9, he is credited with two stories, Emissary and The Maquis, both of which he is credited for because he was involved in creating DS9 and Voyager.

Berman did much good work on Trek over the 18 years he was involved in it, and you are right in saying that it was the UPN execs who were mostly to blame for the problems on Voyager and Enterprise. But his influence on DS9 is still open to dispute, and he doesn't help his case when he forgets that Trek has done serialised stories before and when he can't remember the names of main characters.
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Old October 26 2009, 10:48 PM   #96
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

DevilEyes wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
Mighty big of him to say that, seeing how Moore and Behr have nothing but venom and hostility towards the guy for every last little thing.
Quite a misunderstanding here. No, this was Nana Visitor answering (or not answering) to a question how she felt about Rick Berman, in an interview I linked to in the post above.

Interviewer's question: "Rick Berman. Criticism of his handling of the franchise has been pretty severe. Some other Star Trek actors have said Rick Berman was never a hands on producer and rarely visited their sets. Was that the case with DS9?"

Nana Visitor's answer: "Producers Michael Piller and Ira Steven Behr were my guiding lights in the show. And I adored and I will always adore them both."

What a way to say what she thought of him without actually saying it.
I love Nana Visitor.
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Old October 28 2009, 02:52 AM   #97
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

TheGhoulBen wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
Berman was the one who came up with the idea for the Dominion...
Really? Where did you get that from? Everything I've read and heard indicated that Piller/Behr/Wolfe came up with the Dominion with Wolfe doing a lot of the heavy-lifting in fleshing out the three races. I've never read anything to suggest that Berman was involved, he seemed to be more focused on Generations around that time.
He told them that the Cardassians alone wouldn't be a good series antagonist, and that there should be a villain group from the other side of the wormhole with three tiers to it's organization. That idea developed into the Dominion.
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Old October 28 2009, 02:58 AM   #98
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

Yes, but where did you get that information from? It was my understanding that they introduced three races because they didn't want to run the risk of creating one race as the major villain that fans hated so they decided to introduce three at once, hoping at least one would be popular. I've never seen any indication that Berman was behind that idea. I'm not saying that it's impossible, just that I've seen no evidence for it in the past.
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Old October 28 2009, 03:05 AM   #99
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

While I like quite a few Voyager episodes, after watching all 7 seasons of DS9, I can't get over Voyager's cheesy acting, poor story lines and thoroughly dislikeably annoying characters.

DS9 just had so much more quality throughout.
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Old October 28 2009, 02:57 PM   #100
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

Anwar wrote: View Post
TheGhoulBen wrote: View Post
Anwar wrote: View Post
Berman was the one who came up with the idea for the Dominion...
Really? Where did you get that from? Everything I've read and heard indicated that Piller/Behr/Wolfe came up with the Dominion with Wolfe doing a lot of the heavy-lifting in fleshing out the three races. I've never read anything to suggest that Berman was involved, he seemed to be more focused on Generations around that time.
He told them that the Cardassians alone wouldn't be a good series antagonist, and that there should be a villain group from the other side of the wormhole with three tiers to it's organization. That idea developed into the Dominion.

That's total BS.

The idea for the Dominion did not come from Berman and certainly did not originate with a 3 tiered hierarchy.

The original concept for the Dominion was that it was sort of an anti-Federation. It would feature multiple races united in a more malevolent alliance. In fact the earliest mentions of the Dominion indicate that there are many planets involved. Indeed it was implied that some of the races that came though the wormhole in early episodes might have been involved. The writers wanted to have multiple races, but budget concerns meant that only 3 races were ever shown.

Please remember that the Dominion ultimately shown was a dramatically scaled down version of the original concept and that there were elements that never made it on screen (like the idea that the Dominion was aware of the Federation before the discovery of the wormhole)
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Old October 28 2009, 03:34 PM   #101
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

That "Anti-Federation" thing came after they had already thought up the idea of an enemy on the other side of the Wormhole, and yeah I'd already heard of all that stuff on the Dominion from Memory Alpha.
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Old October 30 2009, 04:17 AM   #102
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

I like DS9 better than Voyager, but I followed both with dedication. I never understood the fan war. I worry for people who have such strong opinions about fiction as to take someone else's differing opinion personally.
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Old October 30 2009, 04:47 AM   #103
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

Re: Berman creating the Dominion

Is it possible maybe it was Rick who told they had to come up with 'something' for the GQ as VOY has TNGing the DQ? I know a lot of the reason was the give the GQ a face.
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Old October 30 2009, 04:55 AM   #104
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

Well I've only seen a few episodes of "Voyager" (including the finale), but they didn't leave a good impression on me. Based on what I've seen, I would consider it the official 'jump the shark' moment for Star Trek, when the franchise did one series too many. I enjoyed a few moments in Q episodes of Voyager, but other than that, I've hated all I've seen of it. Found all of the characters boring and all the plot lines confusing and/or dull/uninspired. The only nice things I can say about are:

1) The Captain was a fine-looking woman
2) Her scenes with Q were entertaining
3) I thought it was cute how hard the guy playing Tuvok was trying to sound like Spock.
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Old October 30 2009, 11:19 PM   #105
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

Too Much Fun wrote: View Post
3) I thought it was cute how hard the guy playing Tuvok was trying to sound like Spock.
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