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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek TV Series > Deep Space Nine

Deep Space Nine What We Left Behind, we will always have here.

View Poll Results: How do you feel about Voyager?
I love Voyager, both it and DS9 are excellent 13 8.39%
I like Voyager, but I prefer DS9 56 36.13%
Voyager was okay, I have no strong feelings 27 17.42%
I disliked Voyager, DS9 was the superior show 42 27.10%
I loath Voyager, it ruined my life 10 6.45%
I'm not a Niner but I want to vote in this poll 7 4.52%
Voters: 155. You may not vote on this poll

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Old November 9 2009, 11:11 PM   #241
DWF
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
DWF wrote: View Post
There was plenty of talk on DS9 about humanity not needing money because of our need to inprove ourselves and I never heard them say anything on TNG about humans evolving being the need to be human.
There was one line in DS9 about humans not needing money, and that was an in-joke Ron Moore wrote humorously lambasting Picard saying the exact same thing in the recently released First Contact. There are countless occasions in DS9 where humans are shown to have money and spending it, they wouldn't be able to buy anything in Quark's if they weren't paying him.

The whole situation is very muddy and makes little sense.
No, it was more than once Jake reminded Nog more than once and yes they used credits on DS9 but nowhere else.
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Old November 10 2009, 12:18 AM   #242
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

Pemmer Harge wrote: View Post
TNG is wonderful. It's not without its flaws - there are plenty of weak episodes - but it has the best leading actor of any Trek, possibly of any sci-fi show
Actually, I strongly disagree with this statement.

Personally, although I like Patrick Stewart, I think he is hugely overrated.

Patrick Stewart is very good at 'stuffy', and 'straight-laced', and 'by-the-book-guy'. He is also good at 'annoyed/perturbed'.

But he does NOT have a very large range outside of that very controlled sort of character. He is very good when you are casting a particular kind of character (ie, a straight-laced, stuffy, always-in-control Brit). But I do not consider him to be very versatile AT ALL.

I mean, think about Avery Brooks playing both Sisko and MU Sisko. Or even playing Hawk. No WAY Patrick Stewart could ever pull off 'bad-ass'. He would look completely and utterly ridiculous. Or think about a character (any character) losing control of their emotions...from breaking down in tears to outright going postal. These are not parts for which Patrick Stewart is well suited.

As I said, he is very good at the sort of parts he almost always plays - controlled, deliberate sorts of characters. But versatile, he is most definitely NOT.

And just for the record, I do not think the best lead actor in a scifi show is Avery Brooks (in case someone wants to yell 'bias!'). IMO, the best lead actor in a scifi show would probably be Richard Dean Anderson. Or maybe David Duchovney (who convinced me SO MUCH that he 'was' Fox Mulder that I have had a REALLY hard time accepting his character on Californication, partially because he has now convinced me that he 'is' that guy - who is in about every way possible the exact opposite of Fox Mulder! ) or Edward James Olmos.

And in Trek, I think I might give that crown to Kate Mulgrew, actually....

If I had to rate the actors who played lead character Trek captains as overall versatile actors, I would probably rate them like so:

1. Kate Mulgrew
2. William Shatner (he gets a HUGE boost in the versatility category for Denny Crane...even though I believe Denny Crane IS, in fact, William Shatner's real self)
3. Avery Brooks (although he completely corners the market on 'bad-ass' as well as the seemingly opposite 'most likable guy captain')
4. Chris Pine (although he is still young, he was GREAT in Trek XI. The last young-ish actor I recall who so totally OWNED a part was Johnny Depp as Captain Jack Sparrow. Pine was brilliant.)
5. Patrick Stewart
6. Scott Bakula
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Old November 10 2009, 12:57 AM   #243
Pemmer Harge
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

Unless you worked on the show or are related to Avery Brooks I don't think bias could come into it!

Range is all well and good, but I find Stewart's acting the most consistent. I also find his performances the most charismatic. Shatner, Brooks and Mulgrew have charisma too, but for me, Stewart owns his show like no other Trek lead.
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Old November 10 2009, 02:01 AM   #244
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

DWF wrote: View Post
No, it was more than once Jake reminded Nog more than once and yes they used credits on DS9 but nowhere else.
Well you're going to have to tell me which episodes actually had Jake explaining that humans don't use money because I only remeber it being said in In the Cards, and a google search for "Jake Sisko money" or "Jake Sisko currency" only brings up references to that one scene.

PKTrekGirl wrote: View Post
Actually, I strongly disagree with this statement.

Personally, although I like Patrick Stewart, I think he is hugely overrated.

Patrick Stewart is very good at 'stuffy', and 'straight-laced', and 'by-the-book-guy'. He is also good at 'annoyed/perturbed'.
I don't know, I think he's pretty good at being a flamboyant gay guy as well.
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Old November 10 2009, 01:35 PM   #245
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
DWF wrote: View Post
No, it was more than once Jake reminded Nog more than once and yes they used credits on DS9 but nowhere else.
Well you're going to have to tell me which episodes actually had Jake explaining that humans don't use money because I only remeber it being said in In the Cards, and a google search for "Jake Sisko money" or "Jake Sisko currency" only brings up references to that one scene.

PKTrekGirl wrote: View Post
Actually, I strongly disagree with this statement.

Personally, although I like Patrick Stewart, I think he is hugely overrated.

Patrick Stewart is very good at 'stuffy', and 'straight-laced', and 'by-the-book-guy'. He is also good at 'annoyed/perturbed'.
I don't know, I think he's pretty good at being a flamboyant gay guy as well.
I was going to mention Jeffrey if anyone didn't.
I love Patrick Stewart and have seen him play everything from Ebenezer Scrooge to King Richard (Robin Hood Men In Tights) to Captain Jean Luc Picard to Sterling (Jeffrey), and I think he has a great range, and a stellar charisma. I agree that Avery Brooks is a very good actor, and has broad range, I also think the same of Kate Mulgrew and William Shatner (love Scott Bakula but his range is limited. He's good at what he does though), but yes indeedy, I'm a Niner, but Patrick Stewart owns just about every piece of stage he steps upon.

J.
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Old November 10 2009, 02:10 PM   #246
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

PKTrekGirl wrote: View Post

I mean, think about Avery Brooks playing both Sisko and MU Sisko. Or even playing Hawk. No WAY Patrick Stewart could ever pull off 'bad-ass'. He would look completely and utterly ridiculous. Or think about a character (any character) losing control of their emotions...from breaking down in tears to outright going postal. These are not parts for which Patrick Stewart is well suited.
Patrick Stewart has actually played very different roles, but let's just stick to Picard. Picard was losing control of his emotions after the meld with Sarek. He was tortured mentally as well as physically and almost losing it at the end of "Chain of Command". And he was rather postal many times in "All Good Things..." And Stewart was brilliant and completely convincing in each of these scenes, which all presented a real danger for a lesser actor to overact. Stewart may be a stage actor, but I never found him too histrionic or theatrical for TV. He just sold every scene, besides having an enormous presence and charisma. TNG is certainly not my favorite Trek series, but Stewart is IMO head and shoulders above the other actors who played lead captains.

As a character, I prefer Sisko to Picard, but I prefer Stewart to Brooks. Although it has to be said that Brooks was also very good, much better than many people give him credit for. He does however have a strange diction which sounds a little too histrionic when he is giving big speeches, which comes off as "overacting" to many people. I always thought he was better in the scenes where he was more restrained and low-key - as I said, the big speeches are really the only problem I have with Brooks.
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Old November 10 2009, 08:03 PM   #247
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

I'm not sure there'd even be much 24th century Trek without Stewart. He's the one that sold TNG, lent it credibility, played the lead in most of its best episodes and led even many who disliked TNG to begrudgingly admit that his performances as Picard were excellent.

Stewart as Picard is also a very hard act to follow, which is one of the reasons that I think Avery Brook's work tends to be underrated. He effortlessly has the presence and gravitas to match Stewart's, and it helps that he also has a compelling voice. He inhabits the role of Captain with ease, as did Picard, which goes a long way toward selling the whole command structure that Trek relies on so heavily.

Mulgrew and Bakula both have their strengths, and both did improve over time, but neither one ever inhabited to role of command as naturally or with as much conviction as Stewart and Brooks imo.
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Old November 10 2009, 08:18 PM   #248
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

I'd agree with DevilEyes about Brooks' diction - I'm not sure what's going on there, but whenever he speechified he just seemed off to me.

TheGodBen wrote: View Post
I don't know, I think he's pretty good at being a flamboyant gay guy as well.
Quite. One almost half-wishes there was a TNG episode where some random space whatzits gave Stewart a transparent excuse to show his incredible range as an actor.

PKTrekGirl wrote: View Post
[I mean, think about Avery Brooks playing both Sisko and MU Sisko. Or even playing Hawk. No WAY Patrick Stewart could ever pull off 'bad-ass'. He would look completely and utterly ridiculous.
"This far and no further!"

First Contact was pretty much a demostration of how well Stewart could be a badass. Whether that's a success is debateable, but I'd call it several mites above "utterly ridiculous."
Or think about a character (any character) losing control of their emotions...from breaking down in tears to outright going postal. These are not parts for which Patrick Stewart is well suited.
He's done both as Picard, and I think he handled it fairly well. The writing in Generations may have faltered but he did sell that moment. "Sarek" is, as observed, another stellar example.

And just for the record, I do not think the best lead actor in a scifi show is Avery Brooks (in case someone wants to yell 'bias!'). IMO, the best lead actor in a scifi show would probably be Richard Dean Anderson. Or maybe David Duchovney (who convinced me SO MUCH that he 'was' Fox Mulder that I have had a REALLY hard time accepting his character on Californication, partially because he has now convinced me that he 'is' that guy - who is in about every way possible the exact opposite of Fox Mulder! ) or Edward James Olmos.

And in Trek, I think I might give that crown to Kate Mulgrew, actually....
Eh. I haven't seen enough of Stargate to have an opinion on Anderson one way or the other (generally I think he's pretty good at being genial and the down-to-earth guy full of pop culture references, sorta like Ben Browder's character on Farscape, which I presume is why Browder was roped in to replace him), while Olmos I've seen having recently marathoned BSG. He's good, though he does oversell the odd moment by doing his patented stern, stubborn gruffness too much ("Daybreak", the suicide mission). Definitely the only example we've got of the stubborn old guy space opera lead in a post-Picard world, but the crown in my eyes would still go to Stewart. Nobody and I mean nobody speechifies like that guy.

Anyway, while it's a good role and well played, it's not exactly versatile. Look serious, let your wonderfully weary face do the talking for you, growl out a few lines dead seriously and your paycheck is in the mail, Mr. Olmos. He does add quite a bit of subtelty and nuance to it, but even still...

Duchovny is just some guy, I dunno. This X Files thing, never got into it for some reason. As for Mulgrew - eh. Everything I've seen her in, which is very little (um... this arc in Cheers, does that count?), she wasn't that different from how she handled Janeway.

As for whether I could think of an actor I'd readily consider better or more versatile than Patrick Stewart as a space opera lead... well, nothing immediately comes to mind, but maybe I'll see it in a dream.
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Old November 10 2009, 09:45 PM   #249
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

I don't see how anyone can say that Patrick Stewart doesn't have a good acting range. If anybody else had kissed a B I would have found it cringe-worthy, but he sells it, I can truly believe that he cares about that letter.

And this has to be the only scene from a Ricky Gervais show that I found funny.
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Old November 10 2009, 10:21 PM   #250
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

PKTrekGirl wrote: View Post
Patrick Stewart is very good at 'stuffy', and 'straight-laced', and 'by-the-book-guy'. He is also good at 'annoyed/perturbed'.

But he does NOT have a very large range outside of that very controlled sort of character. He is very good when you are casting a particular kind of character (ie, a straight-laced, stuffy, always-in-control Brit). But I do not consider him to be very versatile AT ALL.
I'm basically a lurker and don't post often, but have you seen all of TNG or any of Stewart's work outside of TNG?

How about Dune? He was the tough trainer type and did that well. Or what about the show "Extras" where he acted as a silly horndog?

PKTrekGirl wrote:
But versatile, he is most definitely NOT.
There aren't many statements one could make that I would disagree with more than the above. Stewart is absolutely a versatile actor.
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Old November 11 2009, 12:11 AM   #251
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

Alex1939 wrote: View Post
PKTrekGirl wrote: View Post
Patrick Stewart is very good at 'stuffy', and 'straight-laced', and 'by-the-book-guy'. He is also good at 'annoyed/perturbed'.

But he does NOT have a very large range outside of that very controlled sort of character. He is very good when you are casting a particular kind of character (ie, a straight-laced, stuffy, always-in-control Brit). But I do not consider him to be very versatile AT ALL.
I'm basically a lurker and don't post often, but have you seen all of TNG or any of Stewart's work outside of TNG?

How about Dune? He was the tough trainer type and did that well. Or what about the show "Extras" where he acted as a silly horndog?

PKTrekGirl wrote:
But versatile, he is most definitely NOT.
There aren't many statements one could make that I would disagree with more than the above. Stewart is absolutely a versatile actor.
Yes. I have seen ALL of TNG (including the movies), The X-Men movies, and Scrooge, as well as this stupid YouTube clip of him talking about a script full of naked women. And sorry...but I just don't see the range.

As I said, he can do "annoyed" and "perturbed"....and maybe even "angry". That was not the issue.

But those things are definitely NOT the same as "bad-ass" or "out of control". I just don't see him completely losing control convincingly - not in anything I've seen.

And that STUPID YouTube skit I've seen of him talking about naked women in about every sentence. Completely unconvincing and made him look like a moron that was trying too hard to be funny.

But hey....like I said, your mileage may vary.
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Old November 11 2009, 12:17 AM   #252
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

That Patrick Stewart bit in Extras is possibly my favourite bit of comedy ever.
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Old November 11 2009, 03:35 AM   #253
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

I want to see Patrick Stewart and Hugh Laurie do a comedy sketch together.
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Old November 11 2009, 03:37 AM   #254
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

PKTrekGirl wrote: View Post
And that STUPID YouTube skit I've seen of him talking about naked women in about every sentence. Completely unconvincing and made him look like a moron that was trying too hard to be funny.
I can't agree with that, what makes the clip so funny is how naturally he plays some of the lines, particularly "Mainly." I don't find Ricky Gervais all that funny and I don't understand why The Office and Extras were such big hits, but I think that clip is hilarious purely due to Patrick Stewart's performance.
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Old November 11 2009, 04:34 AM   #255
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Re: How do Niners feel about Voyager?

I would like to retract my statement about disliking VOY (because even then it's bordering on true/untrue for me). I happened to get a chance to watch "Endgame", and yes, I realize a lot of VOY fans hated it (or at least the impression I got), but I actually liked it. It gelled rather nicely for me, and so I watched the other VOY episodes I have in the collection and they looked different this time. I would like to upgrade my vote from "disliked" to "liked but prefer DS9".

I might even buy a season or two of VOY so I can watch them in chronological order.

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