How do Niners feel about Voyager?

[TheGodBen]

At this time I am fully focused upon my current role as a small-time Star Trek reviewer, but who knows that the future will hold? America thirsts for change, and we in the Duck and Liberty Party will deliver it, even if I am not the party's candidate in three years time.

[PSGarak]

^^^

Awesome.

[Anwar]

TheGodBen wrote:

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I have been paying attention very closely and your reasoning is beyond absurd.

Because you are a Niner and can't take the criticism?

One Niner is very harsh towards Voyager so you blame all of us based on his words, that is not acceptable.

Seeing how you're general attitude is, you'd have agreed with them anyways which makes it perfectly acceptable.

A tiny group of Muslims destroyed the twin towers in New York, but that doesn't justify anti-Muslim racism. And that's something which actually happened and which cased the deaths of thousands of people, it wasn't a nerd being critical of a television show on message board.

Don't bring real people and real deaths into this, it makes you look desperate.

Some of them possibly are, yes, but the Neelix one most definitely was not.

Yeah it was, the folks I watched VOY with didn't hate him. It only got that way after the show was nearing the end and after it ended.

You're an even smaller few. If fact, you're what we call a "one".

Because I'm the one that had the guts to speak up. Ah well whenever anyone here speaks up against the majority this IS how they often get treated.

Except they don't, most Niners either like Voyager or think it was okay.

Based on what, a poll hardly anyone took seriously to begin with?

I won! Fuck yeah!

Alright, I WAS just going to leave this. But your Niner arrogance (which I pointed out earlier) pulled me back in.

[Cygnus]

Hmm, to be honest, personally, Voyager is my least favourite of all Trek. There are good moments, but it appeals least.

[Kegg]

Anwar wrote:

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Because I'm the one that had the guts to speak up.

So those of us who either observed an animosity towards Neelix during the show's run (and/or entertained such a hatred) are incorrect?

This isn't a case of whether or not those who hated them were the majority, it's a case of whether or not what I witnessed actually existed on the scale I witnessed it exist. My basis for saying Trekkies hated Neelix in the late 1990s/early 2000s is exactly the same for me to make the claim they hated Wesley, a more widely observed fandom hatred.

More pertinently: I've never heard anyone ever say that in the circles they moved in this didn't exist. You're trying to say you've observed and are close enough to the entirety of Trek fandom that this quite literally, spectacularly silent majority exist and have always outnumbered those who hated Neelix, and you are for some reason their sole spokesperson, the only person in the majority of the fandom willing to take this stand - not the stand that you like Neelix (I've seen people say that and I don't abjectly hate him myself, I have a Talaxian avatar for a reason even if it is a tremendously self-deprecating one) - but the stand that the people who dislike him were in the minority when the show was on the air.

What I'm saying is: You're asking me to swallow a whole lot, not least of which is you have a far more holistic knowledge of the Trek fanbase then anyone else posting here. I'm not claiming to be right or an expert, but hell, I just know what I know and I'd like a more convincing explanation if such a thing is available. How does what I observed - the widespread scorn Neelix had on this BBS and a couple of other Trek sites I lurked at - jive with what you observed, in such a way what you observed constituted a majority of Trekkies and what I did, didn't?

Based on what, a poll hardly anyone took seriously to begin with?

This is what I'm talking about. TheGodBen can point to a poll as his evidence for this claim. You literally can just point to your word. You may even be right, but he's sure as hell got the better evidence, and that's how the cookie crumbles.

[J. Allen]

Anwar wrote:

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Alright, I WAS just going to leave this. But your Niner arrogance (which I pointed out earlier) pulled me back in.

Just drop it. The man was making a joke. Either that or take it to PM and quit cluttering up this thread with back and forth sniping. For every post there's something like 10 posts of bickering. It's silly. You know what pulled you back in? YOU pulled you back in. Walk away and leave it alone.

J.

[Anwar]

You know what pulled you back in?

GhoulBen, because I tried walking away but he decided to be a jerk about it instead of doing the same.

[J. Allen]

Anwar wrote:

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GhoulBen, because I tried walking away but he decided to be a jerk about it instead of doing the same.

He made a joke, which should be obvious to just about anyone, and no, YOU pulled you back in. He didn't force you to post, he didn't force you to read his posts, you can put him on ignore if he bothers you so much, but just knock this crap off. Take responsibility for your own actions and words, and walk away if it bothers you so much.

Jesus Christ, you think people had guns to their heads, that this was just the most important drama in the world. Seriously, be an adult and walk away, and do it before a Mod comes in here and decides to make the choice for you. Put each other on ignore if you want, but knock it off.


J.

[RyuRoots]

J. Allen wrote:

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He made a joke, which should be obvious to just about anyone, and no, YOU pulled you back in. He didn't force you to post, he didn't force you to read his posts, you can put him on ignore if he bothers you so much, but just knock this crap off. Take responsibility for your own actions and words, and walk away if it bothers you so much.

Jesus Christ, you think people had guns to their heads, that this was just the most important drama in the world. Seriously, be an adult and walk away, and do it before a Mod comes in here and decides to make the choice for you. Put each other on ignore if you want, but knock it off.


J.

Bah, don't bother. He's on a holy crusade to show the truth of the Niner-haters or some such nonsense. Do what I do and pull up a chair and grab some popcorn. I've learned the futility of trying to speak rationally on this topic.

[Anwar]

J. Allen wrote:

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YOU pulled you back in.

I tried to walk away, he wouldn't let me.

you can put him on ignore if he bothers you so much

That's the cowards' way out, the way for someone who gave up on their argument and their beliefs.

be an adult and walk away

Tried, he wouldn't let me.

[TheGodBen]

Anwar wrote:

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Because you are a Niner and can't take the criticism?

I take criticism all the time, and sometimes I even consider the criticism valid and change my mind because of it. Like the time in the Voyager review thread where I backed down on planned point deductions for shuttle losses because a number of people convinced me that it was the wrong way to go. I have a track record of listening to criticism.

Seeing how you're general attitude is, you'd have agreed with them anyways which makes it perfectly acceptable.

What general attitude? My sarcastic, arrogant yet ironically self-depreciating sense of humour with frequent dalliances into the absurd? I don't see how that would possibly blind me from bigotry.

Don't bring real people and real deaths into this, it makes you look desperate.

Desperate perhaps, but I still think it is a valid point. If the murder of 3,000 people isn't an acceptable basis for judging an entire group of people then why is two or three people criticising a TV show?

Yeah it was, the folks I watched VOY with didn't hate him. It only got that way after the show was nearing the end and after it ended.

Have you ever considered that perhaps you were the person who was in a fringe group and not all the rest of us?

Because I'm the one that had the guts to speak up. Ah well whenever anyone here speaks up against the majority this IS how they often get treated.

No it's not. If you came into this forum and criticised DS9 the television show then nobody would have a problem with you, but you come in here and criticise the fans of the show, and that is why you stand alone.

Based on what, a poll hardly anyone took seriously to begin with?

Compared to your word this poll has far more legitimacy.

Alright, I WAS just going to leave this. But your Niner arrogance (which I pointed out earlier) pulled me back in.

Or perhaps I have a sense of humour? Did you notice that my presidential seal is a rubber duck?

J. Allen wrote:

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Jesus Christ, you think people had guns to their heads, that this was just the most important drama in the world. Seriously, be an adult and walk away, and do it before a Mod comes in here and decides to make the choice for you. Put each other on ignore if you want, but knock it off.


J.

I appreciate what you're saying and you may very well be right, but I started this poll because of Anwar's claims about Niners in other threads and I wanted to see if he was right. According to those who took part in the poll he is not. Because the findings don't match his opinions he chooses to ignore the results of the poll and go on criticising Niners even after the mods told him to knock it off.

If Anwar is going to come into this thread and disrespect it and its participants then I will provide him the rope to hang himself with. If he stops badmouthing Niners and other people who just plain didn't like Voyager then I would not have a problem with him.

[J. Allen]

Anwar wrote:

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I tried to walk away, he wouldn't let me.

That's the cowards' way out, the way for someone who gave up on their argument and their beliefs.

Tried, he wouldn't let me.

So he forcibly made you post? Incredible. The U.S. government would be VERY interested in that kind of technology. At the very least you should take responsibility for your own actions. Since you haven't and seems that you won't, I won't bother with you anymore.

TheGodBen wrote:

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I appreciate what you're saying and you may very well be right, but I started this poll because of Anwar's claims about Niners in other threads and I wanted to see if he was right. According to those who took part in the poll he is not. Because the findings don't match his opinions he chooses to ignore the results of the poll and go on criticising Niners even after the mods told him to knock it off.

If Anwar is going to come into this thread and disrespect it and its participants then I will provide him the rope to hang himself with. If he stops badmouthing Niners and other people who just plain didn't like Voyager then I would not have a problem with him.

This could be a good thread, maybe clear the air for VOY & DS9 fans (as a fan of DS9, I dislike VOY but hold no hatred against it in any way). I'm just tired of the bickering. Now, that being said I won't be involved in this way anymore, as I don't plan on dragging this thread another 7/8/9 pages of back and forth. Just some advice, that's all it is. Good luck and hope it works out.

J.

[RyuRoots]

J. Allen wrote:

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So he forcibly made you post? Incredible. The U.S. government would be VERY interested in that kind of technology. At the very least you should take responsibility for your own actions. Since you haven't and seems that you won't, I won't bother with you anymore.

This could be a good thread, maybe clear the air for VOY & DS9 fans (as a fan of DS9, I dislike VOY but hold no hatred against it in any way). I'm just tired of the bickering. Now, that being said I won't be involved in this way anymore, as I don't plan on dragging this thread another 7/8/9 pages of back and forth. Just some advice, that's all it is. Good luck and hope it works out.

J.

Well, more accurately, clear the air for Anwar and DS9 fans. Never knew anyone else that was on about this.

[Anwar]

TheGodBen wrote:

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I take criticism all the time,

Naturally, seeing how often you dish it out.

What general attitude?

The whole "DS9 and NuBSG are the best sci-fi shows ever with hardly any flaws to them and that's how it is" and the "Voyager didn't waste it's money on constantly changing everything which incidentally would have driven away viewers and they didn't kill off their entire cast as the show went on nor did they waste money on bringing back background characters who added nothing to the story which means it's one of the worst shows to ever exist" attitude.

I don't see how that would possibly blind me from bigotry.

Desperate perhaps, but I still think it is a valid point. If the murder of 3,000 people isn't an acceptable basis for judging an entire group of people then why is two or three people criticising a TV show?

Like I said, real life and death stuff out there. Not applicable to this argument. But it might have something to do with the 1000+ years of other experiences between said groups of people compared to our Non-1000+ years.

Have you ever considered that perhaps you were the person who was in a fringe group and not all the rest of us?

With all the websites and online I was in contact with along with the real-life ones, no. Unless said "fringe" is far more than a fringe. Neelix was not considered the spawn of Satan when VOY was on.

No it's not. If you came into this forum and criticised DS9 the television show then nobody would have a problem with you,

And you're the one saying I don't know what I'm talking about?

Compared to your word this poll has far more legitimacy.

An internet poll in a forum inhabited by the folks who naturally don't want to express the bias I'm pointing out is supposed to be definitive...

If he stops badmouthing Niners and other people who just plain didn't like Voyager then I would not have a problem with him.

In other words, I'd be okay if I was just another DS9-worshiping VOY/TNG/ENT Hater and I didn't point out the unfairness of the situation. Real great life there .

[TheGodBen]

J. Allen wrote:

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This could be a good thread, maybe clear the air for VOY & DS9 fans (as a fan of DS9, I dislike VOY but hold no hatred against it in any way). I'm just tired of the bickering.

I'm tired of it too, but it is either this or do some work for college, and I'm an expert procrastinator.

Anwar wrote:

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Naturally, seeing how often you dish it out.

Sure do. But I tend to keep my criticisms aimed at the television shows or what the poster says, I don't criticise based upon my preconceptions of what a person should be like.

The whole "DS9 and NuBSG are the best sci-fi shows ever with hardly any flaws to them and that's how it is" and the "Voyager didn't waste it's money on constantly changing everything which incidentally would have driven away viewers and they didn't kill off their entire cast as the show went on nor did they waste money on bringing back background characters who added nothing to the story which means it's one of the worst shows to ever exist" attitude.

Jebus Christi Anwar, can you please try to keep your criticisms based on things I say?

You know, I've never said that you adore nearly everything everything about Voyager because I know you don't, and I've
never said that you loath everything about DS9 because I know you don't. I mean, it's not true, so why would I say it?

Like I said, real life and death stuff out there. Not applicable to this argument. But it might have something to do with the 1000+ years of other experiences between said groups of people compared to our Non-1000+ years.

Or it could have something to do with the fact that it is wrong when a person blames a group for the actions of a minority, and most of us know that. I could claim that all Voyager fans are Niner-bashers based upon my experiences with you, but I know that's not true for all Voyager fans or even a majority, so I have no sensible reason to do so. Do you agree that this is the civilised and acceptable way of treating other groups of people?

With all the websites and online I was in contact with along with the real-life ones, no. Unless said "fringe" is far more than a fringe. Neelix was not considered the spawn of Satan when VOY was on.

He was never considered the spawn of satan, he's just considered annoying. And the fact still remains that more people remember Neelix bashing way back in the 90s than don't.

An internet poll in a forum inhabited by the folks who naturally don't want to express the bias I'm pointing out is supposed to be definitive...

If we were such vitriolic and intolerable people as you like to make us out to be, we wouldn't give a toss what you think, we'd just insult you for liking Voyager. That's not what's happening.

In other words, I'd be okay if I was just another DS9-worshiping VOY/TNG/ENT Hater and I didn't point out the unfairness of the situation. Real great life there .

Once again, please reply to what I actually say rather than some made up BS. I said that I would have no problem with you criticising DS9 the television show, I don't see how that mutated in your mind into such a foul distortion of my words.


I'm not going to make this easy for you Anwar, I'm going to keep responding to you in this thread until a mod tells me otherwise. You're not forcing me to do this, that's a choice I have made of my own free will. I am not forcing you to respond, you are perfectly free to stop this at any point of your choosing. If you truly want to stop then stop, but don't claim that I forced you to keep on responding against your will.