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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Battlestar Galactica & Caprica

Battlestar Galactica & Caprica This forum was created by man. It rebelled. It evolved. And it has a plan.

View Poll Results: Grade the movie...
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Above Average 55 35.95%
Average 48 31.37%
Below Average 21 13.73%
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Old November 25 2009, 09:13 PM   #256
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Re: The Plan - Grading & Discussion

PhasersOnStun wrote: View Post
Kaijufan wrote: View Post
According to The Numbers they've sold just over 300,000 copies so far on DVD in the US, though it is an estimate.
Thanks for the link to the site!

I wonder if that includes blu-ray sales as well?
As far as I know those are only DVD sales.

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Old November 26 2009, 11:16 AM   #257
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Re: The Plan - Grading & Discussion

They might get more if they start selling in europe.
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Old November 27 2009, 08:45 PM   #258
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Re: The Plan - Grading & Discussion

Well then.... this sounds very promising, does it not??
My 1st Edition TrekCCG virtual expansion:

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Old December 6 2009, 07:35 PM   #259
Temis the Vorta
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Re: The Plan - Grading & Discussion

Okay I finally got around to watching this thing. It was pretty much what I expected, adding nothing to the explanation of The Plan. It was a clusterfuck of the sort you'd hardly expect even from a reasonably competent group of humans, much less robots with their presumably superior robotic minds. If the frakkin' robots can't even figure out basic shit like, there's a big fat battleship that isn't connected to the network that you're sabotaging, then what's the point of them being robots at all?

Cavil was petty, childish, hypocritical and insane. The rest of the (non Final Five) Cylons were naive and gullible. Why do I care enough about beings who are worthy of nothing but contempt, to want to watch a story about them? In the end only the humans and the Final Five were worthwhile characters, flawed as they may have been. The rest of them were such idiots that I can't bring myself to have a shred of sympathy or interest in their stupid, pathetic story.

BSG represents a type of fiction that really annoys me - stories built around premises that don't deserve to see the light of day. FlashForward is another of this ilk. Okay, you're going to spend five years and millions of dollars on putting a story on screen. Why not spend five seconds making sure you have a story worth all that effort? Even worse, the story was very well executed, which means that not just money but a significant amount of talent went to waste!

I absolutely refuse to believe that of the infinite range of possible story types, this story is the best they could come up with. Of course we all know the problem is that RDM made the inexcusable mistake of not thinking through his premise as the first step in the process, before beginning to sketch out the storylines. If he bet that he could wing it, he bet wrong.

There were a few good elements: it was fun seeing more details about Sam and his merry band of insurgents; the "travelogue" of the colonial worlds was cool (more of than on Caprica, please); and superimposing the UNIVERSAL logo over Caprica was a nice touch.

Regardless of my opinions of BSG, I'll still tune in for Caprica. At least that show already has a premise that is worth putting money and talent into. If they can execute Caprica's premise as well as they did BSG, we should have a pretty frakkin' great show to watch, as long as the lack of space battles and dependence on characterization and dialogue doesn't drive away the audience. It would be ironic (but unsurprising) if a show with a strong premise and great execution went down in flames while a show with a poor premise prospered just because it included shallow elements like space battles.

RoJoHen wrote: View Post
David cgc wrote: View Post
No, a centurion walked into bridge, Six looked up at it and said, "It's a shame they don't understand what we're doing for them." A Doral said, "I think they're grateful in their own way," and a Sharon said, "I know I'd be," and there was another shot of the centurion looking sort of dumb.
I think it's supposed to imply that the Centurions should be grateful that the Skinjobs were finally seeking vengeance against the humans who had previously enslaved them.
Yeah, the Centurions should be so grateful to the skinjobs for treating them like cannon fodder. Bleah.

This just reminds me of something that bugged me during the latter part of the series run, when I started to suspect that there was never going to be any coherent Plan: that we really needed to see at least one Centurion presented as a real character who could represent their point of view.

It's not impossible - if R2D2 can come across as a real "person," why can't a metal toaster? The skinjobs were dimwitted, self-serving hypocrites and I was thoroughly sick of their bullshit by the end of the show. I wanted to hear from the Centurions. They almost seem like victims in this whole mess (something I find nicely counterintuitive and intriguing.) All the humanoids are fighting because of the poor, victimized, massive metal killing machines.

The Plan? -The Plan?!?
The plan was frakked up from the very begining because every single human was supposed to have been wiped out in the initial attack of the colonies. I don't think that was a realistic goal in the first place.
What really frakked up the mop up operation after the attacks was that pesky human emotion, love.
Boomer loved the Old Man and bungled the assasination. Simon loved his family and spaced himself instead of blowing up his ship. All the aware Cylons were swayed by their interactions with humans.
Cavil's plan never had a chance, because the one thing the Cylons were missing, procreation, apparently requires more than artificial insemination, breeding farms, and mythical hybrids. Perpetuation of a sentient species requires LOVE. Because with ressurection capability the Cylons didn't truely love life. They could always just upload again and start over. Death is what gives meaning to life, and without death, they could not love life, or each other.
It was right there in Simom's suicide note to his wife, "Love outlasts death".

And that's the moral of the story, I thought it was a good one.
"Love is better than Hate/Hypocrisy/Insanity" is a good moral of the story? A tad obvious, isn't it? Why did we have to spend five years to find out something we already knew?

For the moral of the story to have had an impact at all, Cavil and his gang would have to have been presented as something better than thoroughly, obviously, completely frakkin' wrong (and stupid to boot). A good story should present far more balanced sides.

Alternatively, forget the morals and present the Cylons as being murderous and bent on the destruction of humans but scrap the hypocritical moralizing. Then at least they could have been decent, if shallow, villains.

Last edited by Temis the Vorta; December 6 2009 at 07:55 PM.
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Old December 6 2009, 09:06 PM   #260
David cgc
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Re: The Plan - Grading & Discussion

Temis the Red-Nosed Vorta wrote: View Post
If the frakkin' robots can't even figure out basic shit like, there's a big fat battleship that isn't connected to the network that you're sabotaging, then what's the point of them being robots at all?
To be fair, Galactica had no bullets. It's only defense was a networked fighter squadron that had already been destroyed. If Tyrol and his crew hadn't been dedicated to restoring their exhibits, the ship would've been easily destroyed. If Adama didn't think outside the box and send the museum vipers to defend this ship, it would've easily been destroyed. If Saul Tigh had gotten a slightly later start to the night and wasn't drunk enough to throw over a card table so Kara Thrace punched him, she would've been out in the new fighters and killed instead of in the brig and, thus, available to defend the ship and shoot down the raiders and nukes that none of the second stringers were good enough to take, and the ship would've easily been destroyed.

The point is, unless you're suggesting that a robotic super-genius equals overkill, the Cylons sent exactly as much force as they needed to take out one unarmed, undefended ship. Especially since the miniseries makes it clear that there was an actual large-scale space-battle going on, presumably against the portions of the fleet that both didn't have Baltar's new software, and did have working guns. I'd like to know what the robot logic would be in sending an entire baseship to fight a sitting duck when there are battlestars that can actually shoot back in need of being destroyed.

Also, I'm just wondering if you've ever read anything about computer science, because Cavil's plan really is quite computer-like, when you think about it. Cavil, as the final five built him, and like the centurions before him, aspired to be more than he was. Unfortunately, his ambition outstripped his self-confidence. He used his parents' approval to judge his own self-worth, and all they were saying was, "Be more human. Stop trying to kill humans. Humans are really pretty cool once you get to know them." Humans, in short, were better than Cavil. So if Cavil wanted to be better, but didn't have the stones to go in for genuine self-improvement, the easiest way to get what he wanted was to get rid of the humans, so Cavil would, in the Final Five's eyes, be best by default. Besides, humans were assholes anyway. Who'd miss 'em? Not the Final Five, that's for sure, not once they got to see all the asshole things humans do up close and personal.

Let me put this in terms a computer would understand.
IF Cavil's position in list "FinalFiveLove" is not 1
	THEN delete item 1 in list "FinalFiveLove," rerun instruction
	ELSE do nothing
Which was also the same though process that led the Number One prototype to destroy the Number Seven line, the reason why Cavil snapped at Ellen when she tried to embrace him in "No Exit," ("Don't tell me you love me! Not when you're going to go off with those people again the second I turn my back!"), and, for that matter, led David in A.I. to beat the hell out of his duplicate models. None of them understood that love wasn't some limited resource, where you had to make sure others got less if you wanted more, as if it were RAM in a computer, and you had to quit one program if you wanted another to be able to run better.

Even the Caprica copy of Cavil, at the end of "The Plan" didn't realize that. He'd just figured out that destroying humanity wouldn't free up more love for the Cavils. The Final Five's love for humanity would stay right where it was, and they'd just be pissed off at the Cavils. He'd decided that their plan was futile, where it was really just wrongheaded. They could've gotten the love and approval they wanted from the Final Five, but it would've had to come from building themselves up, not tearing others down. Now, maybe if Caprica-Cavil had the chance, he would've realized the love you take is only equal to the love you make (which, I again emphasize, is a blatantly illogical idea, namely expending a resource and then ending up with more of it, which would be anathema to a computer), but Fleet-Cavil apparently had the luck of dying first and getting to decide who's story the other Ones would hear.

Of course, the other key is that the cylons didn't think like a computer. Joe Adama and Dan Graystone commissioned a lot of thieving and murdering specifically so the first Cylon would get a holistic processor that could think like a human. Cavil may have fetishized the algorithmic, rational thought process as a form of rebellion against his human-loving parents, but not a single cylon (going all the way back to the first centurion) ever genuinely thought like anything we'd recognize as a computer. Otherwise, they would've been useless as soldiers, and constitutionally incapable of staging a revolution, designing their own spacecraft, developing a religion, or any of the other things they ever did that required an ounce of independent or creative thought.
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Old December 6 2009, 09:16 PM   #261
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Re: The Plan - Grading & Discussion

Temis the Red-Nosed Vorta wrote: View Post
BSG represents a type of fiction that really annoys me - stories built around premises that don't deserve to see the light of day.
That's pretty harsh. What part of BSG are you referring to? I thought BSG told a great story and had one of the best underlying mythologies I've ever seen in televised science fiction. The only thing that I'd describe as problematic in BSG is the classic "search for X", in this case, Earth. You know they can't find X too soon, otherwise the show would be over.
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Old December 27 2009, 07:22 PM   #262
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Re: The Plan - Grading & Discussion

I see that this will be on SciFi in Jan and I cant wait! I havent seen it yet.
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Old December 28 2009, 02:01 AM   #263
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Re: The Plan - Grading & Discussion

I just finished watching it finally, and thought it was pretty good. Definitely nothing Earth-shatteringly amazing, but a pretty fun romp through the first two seasons. I wasn't expecting any big revelations or "aha!" moments, but for a movie that basically just fills in blanks that weren't all that necessary to fill in, The Plan gets the job done nicely. It also makes me pine for more Dean Stockwell and Rick Worthy throughout the series; it's a huge shame they cast such great actors in important roles and then found they could never get the scheduling to work out.

One little thing that really stood out was a tiny moment when Fleet Cavil tells Shelley Six to airlock herself---the camera does a closeup on Tricia Helfer's face and her eyes convey some extremely powerful emotions in just those few seconds. Usually on the series I'd stick to praising amazing actors like Olmos or Hogan or McDonnel, but in this scene for the first time I have to put Helfer in that same superb category. I had to rewind and watch it 2 or 3 more times to take it in...I think her performance here was as moving as any of the classic emotional moments from the series.
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Old December 28 2009, 02:05 AM   #264
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Re: The Plan - Grading & Discussion

Lookingglassman wrote: View Post
I see that this will be on SciFi in Jan and I cant wait! I havent seen it yet.
You're going to miss the titties.
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Old December 28 2009, 11:33 AM   #265
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Re: The Plan - Grading & Discussion

I don't think he'll mind...
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Old December 28 2009, 06:42 PM   #266
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Re: The Plan - Grading & Discussion

Kelso wrote: View Post
Lookingglassman wrote: View Post
I see that this will be on SciFi in Jan and I cant wait! I havent seen it yet.
You're going to miss the titties.
Yeah, and the franks and beans.
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Old January 1 2010, 02:15 AM   #267
Re: The Plan - Grading & Discussion

I thought 'The Plan' was fantastic.

Essentially, it showed BSG Seasons 1 and 2 from the Cylon perspective of the Cavils on Galactica and Caprica, respectively.

The story tied in nicely with existing BSG lore, particularly the actions of the Cylons in the Colonial Fleet. Finally explaining Shelley Godfrey's disappearance was a nice touch.

The only real disappointment I had was that 'The Plan' didn't show more of what the Cylons were up to in Seasons 3 and 4. I also wonder if Giana and her daughter made it to Earth. I hope they did.

Some criticisms (or more pointing out things that weren't touched on):
  • The Olympic carrier. Was the ship really taken over by Cylons? Was there a nuke onboard? This was a major plot point in '33' that I expected further explanation on.
  • Who murdered Valance in 'Colonial Day'?
  • Did Baltar's Cylon detector pick up the Final Five?
These were major plot points that I expected explanation on.

But, aside from those issues, I loved 'The Plan'. The CG in the attack on the colonies was gorgeous, and the soundtrack, particularly the revamped BSG theme in the closing credits, was mesmerising.

Eddie Olmos, Jane Espenson and the cast and crew did a magnificent job. Any further BSG films should have Eddie Olmos at the helm.
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Old January 1 2010, 05:55 PM   #268
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Re: The Plan - Grading & Discussion

garak1 wrote: View Post
Who murdered Valance in 'Colonial Day'?
Since that was related to Zarek's storyline, there'd be no need to go over it in The Plan.
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Old January 2 2010, 03:49 AM   #269
Re: The Plan - Grading & Discussion

Since that was related to Zarek's storyline, there'd be no need to go over it in The Plan.
Fair point. But if 'The Plan' wasn't the right place for it, then where else?

Ellen Tigh's involvement (and hence the Final Five) was implied during the episode, but never directly stated.
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Old January 2 2010, 06:40 AM   #270
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Re: The Plan - Grading & Discussion

A follow-up movie about Zarek. Wishful thinking on my part, no doubt, but there's ground waiting to be covered in such a film if further installments are made. The Plan has sold rather well, hasn't it?
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