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Old September 28 2009, 02:50 PM   #1
Mach5
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Xindi attack and its effect on Trek history

It is established on screen that the Xindi probe attack of 2153 was never supposed to happen, because the history (the "original" history) had no record of it, right? In episode "Storm Front pt.2" we see Captain Archer observe the timeline correcting itself, almost everything getting back into place etc.

Now, let’s take a brief look at the facts concerning this major event that was never meant to happen, along with the consequences:

- Seven million people died - people who were never meant to die that day! There's a good chance that there was important people among them, or people whose offsprings could have played major historical roles in years to come.

- NX-01, a famous starship commanded by an important historical figure, undertook a year long mission that it was never supposed to undertake, meaning that in the original timeline, the NX-01 crew spent an entire year doing something completely different.

- The general climate on Earth changed radically – human trust in aliens (along with Vulcans) diminished, xenophobia became a major issue, large isolationist movements started forming (Terra Prime).

- Earth’s topography changed! Xindi probe carved a huge, four thousand kilometers long canyon from Florida to Venezuela.

- Starfleet changed – began retrofitting ships with more advanced weaponry, like photonic torpedoes. MACO’s became an integral part of ships’ crews.

- Jonathan Archer – an important historical figure, one of the founding fathers of the Federation, returned from Delphic Expanse a changed man - guilt ridden and disillusioned. This must have affected a lot of choices he made during the course of his career, choices that had considerable impact on Federation history.

- Vulcans planned and nearly executed a preemptive strike against the Andorians under a false premise that the Andorians possessed Xindi weaponry – yet another huge historical event (with major consequences on interspecies relations) that most certainly played out differently than in the original timeline, because of the Xindi thing.


Taking all this under consideration (as long with many other things not mentioned here), is it not safe to conclude that the timeline Nero entered and changed in ST XI was in fact NOT the same timeline in which TOS and the 24. century spinoffs took place, but in fact a DRAMATICALLY different one?
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Old September 28 2009, 02:54 PM   #2
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Re: Xindi attack and its effect on Trek history

Mach5 wrote: View Post
It is established on screen that the Xindi probe attack of 2153 was never supposed to happen, because the history (the "original" history) had no record of it, right?
No.

There is no evidence that the Xindi attack wasn't supposed to happen. As far as we know, it was part of history all along. As was ENT itself.
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Old September 28 2009, 03:19 PM   #3
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Re: Xindi attack and its effect on Trek history

Indeed, we might argue that the Xindi attack is what Sulu refers to in TAS "Slaver Weapon", when he says that the Xindi fought four futile wars against Earth some two centuries prior to the episode's date of late 2260s or early 2270s.

He just pronounces "Xindi" a bit funnily - just like the feline Xindi do it, due to having a mouth full of very sharp teeth.

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Old September 28 2009, 03:40 PM   #4
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Re: Xindi attack and its effect on Trek history

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
There is no evidence that the Xindi attack wasn't supposed to happen. As far as we know, it was part of history all along. As was ENT itself.
DANIELS: "History doesn't mention anything about a conflict between humans and Xindi."
(ENT: "Carpenter Street")

Timo wrote: View Post
Indeed, we might argue that the Xindi attack is what Sulu refers to in TAS "Slaver Weapon", when he says that the Xindi fought four futile wars against Earth some two centuries prior to the episode's date of late 2260s or early 2270s.

He just pronounces "Xindi" a bit funnily - just like the feline Xindi do it, due to having a mouth full of very sharp teeth.
Those were the Kzinti.
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Old September 28 2009, 03:43 PM   #5
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Re: Xindi attack and its effect on Trek history

Just because Daniels says it's true, doesn't mean it is. I see no reason to believe him.

And besides, even if he was telling the truth, 1) HIS history could be the wrong one, or 2) he could have been talking about open warfare breaking out - which did not, in fact, occur.
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Old September 28 2009, 03:55 PM   #6
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Re: Xindi attack and its effect on Trek history

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Just because Daniels says it's true, doesn't mean it is. I see no reason to believe him.
Exactly, YOU see no reason. You choose to accept a version that works best for YOU, which is perfectly fine since this is all make-believe anyway.

Just as you see no reason to believe Daniels, I see no reason not to believe him. After all, Archer believed him.

(If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it could be a frog impersonating a duck, but it's most likely just a duck.)
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Old September 28 2009, 04:25 PM   #7
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Re: Xindi attack and its effect on Trek history

Here's the thing about ENTERPRISE: The entire series was apparently about time travel as a major arc, the temporal cold war, Daniels, Future Guy, all that... so I've never clinged too strongly to Star Treks historical record as much as most in that respect. And I feel that was the whole point by the writers and producers, so they could do whatever they wanted and not be held down by Trek's canon as it stood, and give them freedom to write new compelling stories without being bogged down by 30 some years of Trek history. Now anything could happen in a series where time was constantly being altered and that's one thing I thought was interesting about this particular show... Ever since First Contact, in fact, I've just said "aw, fuck it". So, sure, I can buy that Enterprise created the altered timeline that Nero and Spock entered, why not? Sounds cool. I don't care about timelines that much anymore, from Treks very beginning they've played with the concept of time travel so let's just have fun with it... let Edith Keeler live!!
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Old September 28 2009, 04:27 PM   #8
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Re: Xindi attack and its effect on Trek history

Mach5 wrote: View Post
Just as you see no reason to believe Daniels, I see no reason not to believe him. After all, Archer believed him.
Well, you're the one who wants evidence, so show me the evidence that Daniels' timeline is the correct one.
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Old September 28 2009, 04:35 PM   #9
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Re: Xindi attack and its effect on Trek history

How confusing. So were TOS and TNG already the product of the 'alternate' timeline where the Xindi attacked or was Enterprise dealing with an alternate timeline to the future series from the attack forward? And does the new movie run from the alternate timeline so that it is an alternate branch of an alternate timeline?

This is why I firmly believe that the past cannot be changed because it has already happened...

So the Borg always went back and failed. Scotty always invented transparent aluminium. Sisko was always Gabriel wotsisname. Nero always went back and was defeated because if he hadn't been, Vulcan wouldn't exist.

Alternate timelines schmimelines.
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Old September 28 2009, 04:37 PM   #10
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Re: Xindi attack and its effect on Trek history

The only alternate timeline is the one in the new movie. And that's a special case because it didn't overwrite the old one.
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Old September 28 2009, 04:50 PM   #11
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Re: Xindi attack and its effect on Trek history

Ah silly - they NEVER overwrite the old one in Trek lore. The question is simply whether our heroes are shunted across into the new timeline or not. The writers are just a bit unsure of themselves in that regard and have differed in their explanation. My understanding is that the two theories of time travel are mutually exclusive from a scientific perspective.

Times Arrow is how I like my time travel though.
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Old September 28 2009, 04:52 PM   #12
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Re: Xindi attack and its effect on Trek history

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Mach5 wrote: View Post
Just as you see no reason to believe Daniels, I see no reason not to believe him. After all, Archer believed him.
Well, you're the one who wants evidence, so show me the evidence that Daniels' timeline is the correct one.
Actually, I'm not sure that there is a correct one. After all, "Parallels" teaches us that the number of timelines is infinite.

Pauln6 wrote: View Post
My understanding is that the two theories of time travel are mutually exclusive from a scientific perspective.

Times Arrow is how I like my time travel though.
I don't see why they should be mutually exclusive at all. I just assume that the time itself is a term fully comprehensible only to beings like the "Prophets," the Q etc. Lets just say that time incursions sometimes create new timelines, and sometimes overwrite the old ones, depending on the variables too delicate for humanoids to even notice, let alone understand.
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Old September 28 2009, 04:58 PM   #13
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Re: Xindi attack and its effect on Trek history

Mach5 wrote: View Post
Just as you see no reason to believe Daniels, I see no reason not to believe him. After all, Archer believed him.
When Archer asked Daniels why he should trust him, the best he could come up with was 'I bring you your eggs just the way you like them.'

So I take everything he says with a grain of salt... just like my eggs.
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Old September 28 2009, 04:59 PM   #14
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Re: Xindi attack and its effect on Trek history

Clever, so every time we see a plot inconsistency it's just because this weeks episode is set in a parallel universe with slight differences? Lazy, but clever...
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Old September 28 2009, 05:01 PM   #15
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Re: Xindi attack and its effect on Trek history

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Clever, so every time we see a plot inconsistency it's just because this weeks episode is set in a parallel universe with slight differences? Lazy, but clever...
No, that's just because the writers didn't care...
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