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View Poll Results: Are Actives slaves?
Yes 23 58.97%
No 16 41.03%
Voters: 39. You may not vote on this poll

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Old September 22 2009, 07:55 PM   #16
Christopher
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Re: Are "Dolls" slaves?

I agree that the Dolls' situation is technically indentured servitude, not slavery. Slaves are forced or born into servitude; indentures sign away their rights for a period of time. Can indentured servants be abused or tricked into prolonging their indentures? Absolutely. But anyone in any type of work can be exploited or abused. That doesn't change the fact that these labels have distinct definitions. An indentured servant is not the same thing as a slave. They're both bad things, but they're different bad things.

In some ways, though, a Doll is worse off than an indentured servant or a slave. At least people in those two categories retain their sense of self. The Dollhouse is a whole new way of using people, one that probably can't be defined with any of the old terms. It raises whole new questions that have no pat, familiar answers, and that's what makes the show so fascinating.
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Old September 22 2009, 07:57 PM   #17
Yoda
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Re: Are "Dolls" slaves?

Tomato wrote: View Post
Yoda wrote: View Post
OMG if you sign a contract to be a soldier, then you try to 'opt-out' they thrown you in jail. WTF SLAVERY OHNOES!!!1!
But you know what you are doing and you still have a choice in your actions 100% of the time. And that is still a choice to be thrown in jail, you must have consciously disobeyed some command.

Like these Dolls are being rented out as high class escorts has anybody even bother testing the dolls or even the people that rent them out? They are always being forced to do more and more dangerous things.
So I guess black slaves in America weren't really slaves. After all they had the choice of trying to escape and maybe being executed. They really had it a lot better than people who want to whore out their bodies for a few years for personal gain and not remember it

Christopher wrote: View Post
The Dollhouse is a whole new way of using people, one that probably can't be defined with any of the old terms.
Hrm... perhaps... we shall call them....... dolls.
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Old September 23 2009, 07:46 PM   #18
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Re: Are "Dolls" slaves?

Christopher wrote: View Post
I agree that the Dolls' situation is technically indentured servitude, not slavery. Slaves are forced or born into servitude; indentures sign away their rights for a period of time. Can indentured servants be abused or tricked into prolonging their indentures? Absolutely. But anyone in any type of work can be exploited or abused. That doesn't change the fact that these labels have distinct definitions. An indentured servant is not the same thing as a slave. They're both bad things, but they're different bad things.
That's almost exactly what I would say. These people willingly signed the dotted line to do it and knew it would probably involve things they would not want to do.

In some ways, though, a Doll is worse off than an indentured servant or a slave. At least people in those two categories retain their sense of self. The Dollhouse is a whole new way of using people, one that probably can't be defined with any of the old terms. It raises whole new questions that have no pat, familiar answers, and that's what makes the show so fascinating.
On the other hand if it means doing things they don't like, they will never know about it which in some ways is better than what a soldier or indentured servant would have since they'd know what they were doing and remember it.
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Old September 23 2009, 08:56 PM   #19
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Re: Are "Dolls" slaves?

Are actives slaves? No

Are people idiots for using actives as hostage negotiators and covert operatives? Yes.

Is the show asinine? Yes.
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Old September 23 2009, 10:06 PM   #20
Yoda
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Re: Are "Dolls" slaves?

Admiral2 wrote: View Post
Are actives slaves? No

Are people idiots for using actives as hostage negotiators and covert operatives? Yes.

Is the show asinine? Yes.
But but.... ANYONE CAN HAPPEN!!

What did you install an ad blocker or something
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Old September 23 2009, 11:53 PM   #21
The Borgified Corpse
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Re: Are "Dolls" slaves?

Teelie wrote: View Post
That's almost exactly what I would say. These people willingly signed the dotted line to do it and knew it would probably involve things they would not want to do.
Correction: Things they would prefer not to do but have willingly consented to doing because they are getting paid for it.

I think the soldier comparison is apt. You sign up. The organization feeds, clothes, houses, & cares for you. You get paid. In exchange, you do what they say, which is what you agreed to do when you signed up. If you try to opt out, that is called desertion and they'll throw you in jail.

Because they have consented to everything that is being done, the original personalities are not slaves. You could argue that the Dolls have rights separate from their original personalities. Caroline is not a slave but Echo might be. For the most part, this is not an issue because the Dolls have no self awareness or desire for self determination. But what about a long running self aware imprint like Dr. Saunders? What if she decides that she does not want to cede her body back to its original owner?

Also, suppose a Doll's original personality imprint was lost or destroyed. Who does the body belong to then?
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Old September 23 2009, 11:59 PM   #22
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Re: Are "Dolls" slaves?

I would say they are slaves, mostly for one reason: maybe it will be explained at the end of the series, but does anyone ever come out the 'other end' of their 'indenture' as themselves? They store the actives' original personalities, even wipe out their crimes, but if their reasons for entering the Dollhouse were of a more personal nature, is this only a reprieve from their suffering, or are they programmed with a simulation of their original personality, tailored to eliminate the issues for which they agreed to their contract? Does that mean they never really are released from their contracts, because they aren't the same people who came in originally? Are their original personalities now the property of the Dollhouse, to use in part or in whole for whatever purpose they deem necessary?
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Old September 26 2009, 03:56 AM   #23
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Re: Are "Dolls" slaves?

I found it interesting that on tonight's S2 premier Amy Ackers Dr.Saunderson/Whiskey makes a brief mention/question as to Dolls as Slaves.
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Old September 26 2009, 08:58 PM   #24
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Re: Are "Dolls" slaves?

The Borgified Corpse wrote: View Post
But what about a long running self aware imprint like Dr. Saunders? What if she decides that she does not want to cede her body back to its original owner?

Also, suppose a Doll's original personality imprint was lost or destroyed. Who does the body belong to then?
I think Dr Saunders mentioned something to that line of thought in the season premier
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Old September 26 2009, 10:14 PM   #25
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Re: Are "Dolls" slaves?

They are slaves. Their contracts are useless. The Dollhouse is secret. They can't opt out or even try to refuse an order. They can be used for any purpose. They can be used as target practice or to blow a pony. They can be executed on a whim. The only thing that prevents that is profit. If the profit is higher for them to be killed by a client then they will be killed. The place is completely immoral and evil. It is a funhouse for sick, rich assholes looking for a thrill.
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Old September 27 2009, 01:03 AM   #26
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Re: Are "Dolls" slaves?

Part of the reason I turned this show off after I watched the first few episodes is because of this very issue.

It made me VERY uncomfortable that these guys were essentially slaves. Indentured, maybe...but indentured via coercion...which did not really render a legitimate 'choice' at all. It wasn't as if they were choosing between complete freedom and servitude.... And that whole memory wipe thing is HIGHLY troublesome to me. Didn't Babylon 5 teach us anything?

Anyway, I didn't like that about the show, and felt it was demeaning to women. Even the NAME "Dolls" is offensive. So I turned it off.
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Old September 27 2009, 01:45 AM   #27
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Re: Are "Dolls" slaves?

You know there are dude dolls, right? And that the concept is, indeed, supposed to be bad news that's going to be used for purposes far more troubling than building a better brothel?
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Old September 27 2009, 01:45 AM   #28
Ptrope
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Re: Are "Dolls" slaves?

How is the show "demeaning" to women - or more to the point, how do you single women out, when it's clear that they have what appear to be an equivalent number of men? And when do they refer to them as "dolls?" Not saying they don't, but it hasn't ever jumped out at me; they're referred to as "actives" in the show, "doll" showing up only in the name of the "Dollhouse."

broberfett, where the heck did you come up with that? Have we ever seen an active harmed by a client when the management knew that was a possibility? DeWitt has been very clear to clients that they protect the actives; the presence of the handlers is a part of that effort, as well. Not arguing with the last two sentences, necessarily, but the rest of what you said has no evidence to support it; if you don't like something, you're more than entitled, but why dream stuff up that isn't true, just to support it?
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Old September 27 2009, 01:58 AM   #29
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Re: Are "Dolls" slaves?

Ptrope wrote: View Post
broberfett, where the heck did you come up with that? Have we ever seen an active harmed by a client when the management knew that was a possibility? DeWitt has been very clear to clients that they protect the actives; the presence of the handlers is a part of that effort, as well. Not arguing with the last two sentences, necessarily, but the rest of what you said has no evidence to support it; if you don't like something, you're more than entitled, but why dream stuff up that isn't true, just to support it?
Epitaph One proves broberfett's point quite well. DeWitt may be running her Dollhouse with some semblance of decency, but it's quite clear that the company cares only for money and power. Actives can be used, abused, and discarded as the company sees fit.
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Old September 27 2009, 02:47 AM   #30
Lindley
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Re: Are "Dolls" slaves?

Ptrope wrote: View Post
And when do they refer to them as "dolls?" Not saying they don't, but it hasn't ever jumped out at me; they're referred to as "actives" in the show, "doll" showing up only in the name of the "Dollhouse."
They've been referred to as Dolls in-show a few times now.

PKTrekGirl wrote:
Part of the reason I turned this show off after I watched the first few episodes is because of this very issue.
While I can certainly understand not wanting to watch something that makes you uncomfortable, you should understand that the people in charge of the Dollhouse are not meant to be the good guys. This show doesn't really have "good guys", except to an extent Ballard and Boyd. It's very much about a personal kind of "good", not anything institutional.

The show simply says, "Suppose this tech exists. What then?", which in many ways is more science-fictiony than many TV shows ever get.

And the ultimate answer has been given. The technology leads to the fall of civilization. Only the story of how that happened, and what comes after, remains to be told.
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