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Old September 30 2009, 10:34 PM   #76
Patrickivan
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Re: Cleopatra's Needle - Design Proposals

Is something like the runnabout's lounge out of the question? They seemed to have made good use out of a small space.
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Old September 30 2009, 10:52 PM   #77
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Re: Cleopatra's Needle - Design Proposals

opps- sorry. Accidental post.
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Old September 30 2009, 11:18 PM   #78
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Re: Cleopatra's Needle - Design Proposals

Patrickivan wrote: View Post
Is something like the runnabout's lounge out of the question? They seemed to have made good use out of a small space.
That's a good direction to aim for -- something spare but clean and comfortable, with windows. When I think "break room" I think of something cruder. We want something that's compact in size, but psychologically inviting and soothing, maybe something with art on the walls as well as a viewscreen for watching movies or something. Maybe a fold-up treadmill or exercise bike comes out of a wall.
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Old September 30 2009, 11:40 PM   #79
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Re: Cleopatra's Needle - Design Proposals

It's not said anywhere that a breakroom can't have windows... I've had multiple jobs, where our breakrooms had windows.
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Old October 1 2009, 12:05 AM   #80
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Re: Cleopatra's Needle - Design Proposals

I never said anything about whether a breakroom could have windows. I was comparing a breakroom unfavorably to the comfort and sophistication of the runabout lounge in general, not to the single specific fact that it had windows. A breakroom can have windows and still look crude.
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Old October 1 2009, 02:17 AM   #81
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Re: Cleopatra's Needle - Design Proposals

I know you didn't ask for it, Christopher, but how about a small holodeck, say two or three meters on a side by one deck high so one or two people can stand on a sunny beach or climb a mountain or ski? This could also provide instructional facilities for the children with a good educational database.

EDIT TO ADD:
It doesn't even have to be as sophisticated as those seen on NextGen, just images, sounds, winds, smells, and temperatures might be enough to do wonders for passenger morale. Considering we almost have that kind of technology today ...
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Old October 1 2009, 02:43 PM   #82
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Re: Cleopatra's Needle - Design Proposals

Given how impressed people were by the E-D's holodeck in "Farpoint," I tend to think it was a technology that wasn't practical for shipboard use until the early 2360s. I think it would therefore be anachronistic to have one on the Needle. They'd have to make do with a video screen in front of the treadmill/exercise bike. Or maybe they have the 24th-century equivalent of Wii Sports.

Sure, we'll have tech that advanced long before the 24th century, but clearly they don't in the Trekverse. Perhaps WWIII and the Earth-Romulan War set back human technology in some respects.
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Old October 1 2009, 03:54 PM   #83
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Re: Cleopatra's Needle - Design Proposals

BolianAdmiral wrote: View Post
Well, the thing is... this ship is quite small. As such, I would envision a "lounge" on such a ship being no larger than either something like on a 747, or maybe a small breakroom, at a work location... just enough for a few people to unwind for a few minutes... a table and a few seats, a replicator, and maybe a viewscreen or table game. Again, just my take.
I dug up some URLs for assorted research ships for sale, to help provide some real examples of space usage and fittings on such ships. Not an exact match for the Needle since at least some of the time these ships have open deck space available, but something to get ideas from. (most of these have another page with additional photos. See the "click here for more photo" link just above the photos on the given page. I tried to just pick ones that showed common areas.)

http://www.maritimesales.com/TL10.htm
http://www.maritimesales.com/TAT10.htm
http://www.maritimesales.com/ARM10.htm
http://www.maritimesales.com/PFO10.htm
http://www.maritimesales.com/CHA10.htm
http://www.maritimesales.com/CAL10.htm
a bit on the richer end:
http://www.maritimesales.com/YK10.htm
http://www.maritimesales.com/CES10.htm
http://www.maritimesales.com/PI12.htm <= a "Whiskey" class sub. The staff room photo may be of interest (though very grainy and the angle doesn't show all that much.)
http://www.workboatsinternational.com/yacht-mcs752.html (scroll down and click for interior photos)

More examples can be gotten by Google-image-ing for "boat interiors" as I suggested above, and especially for "sailboat interiors". Sailboats usually have to be even more mindful of space than powerboats, so they sometimes provide better examples of getting maximum usage out of given spaces. Naturally, a lot of what you'll turn up on the web are luxury designs, but if the space usage works just rework it with less fancy materials (i.e., generic ship paneling instead of expensive woodwork.
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Old October 1 2009, 07:26 PM   #84
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Re: Cleopatra's Needle - Design Proposals

EmperorKalan wrote: View Post
BolianAdmiral wrote: View Post
Well, the thing is... this ship is quite small. As such, I would envision a "lounge" on such a ship being no larger than either something like on a 747, or maybe a small breakroom, at a work location... just enough for a few people to unwind for a few minutes... a table and a few seats, a replicator, and maybe a viewscreen or table game. Again, just my take.
I dug up some URLs for assorted research ships for sale, to help provide some real examples of space usage and fittings on such ships. Not an exact match for the Needle since at least some of the time these ships have open deck space available, but something to get ideas from. (most of these have another page with additional photos. See the "click here for more photo" link just above the photos on the given page. I tried to just pick ones that showed common areas.)

http://www.maritimesales.com/TL10.htm
http://www.maritimesales.com/TAT10.htm
http://www.maritimesales.com/ARM10.htm
http://www.maritimesales.com/PFO10.htm
http://www.maritimesales.com/CHA10.htm
http://www.maritimesales.com/CAL10.htm
a bit on the richer end:
http://www.maritimesales.com/YK10.htm
http://www.maritimesales.com/CES10.htm
http://www.maritimesales.com/PI12.htm <= a "Whiskey" class sub. The staff room photo may be of interest (though very grainy and the angle doesn't show all that much.)
http://www.workboatsinternational.com/yacht-mcs752.html (scroll down and click for interior photos)

More examples can be gotten by Google-image-ing for "boat interiors" as I suggested above, and especially for "sailboat interiors". Sailboats usually have to be even more mindful of space than powerboats, so they sometimes provide better examples of getting maximum usage out of given spaces. Naturally, a lot of what you'll turn up on the web are luxury designs, but if the space usage works just rework it with less fancy materials (i.e., generic ship paneling instead of expensive woodwork.
Those are some pretty nice shots. I like the idea of bunk beds. It really drives home the whole maximum utilization of space thing.
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Old October 11 2009, 10:50 PM   #85
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Re: Cleopatra's Needle - Design Proposals

So has everyone stopped working on their Needle designs, or are you folks just taking your time to make them perfect before you show them off?
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Old October 12 2009, 04:34 AM   #86
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Re: Cleopatra's Needle - Design Proposals

[grins] Poor Christopher! He's been abandoned.

Seriously, though, I haven't given up, but I've been interrupted by completely unrelated matters that need my time. Nor have I gotten the blasted book yet! There's just too much going on. But I'm still excited by the project and will get back to it in a week or two.
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Old October 12 2009, 02:48 PM   #87
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Re: Cleopatra's Needle - Design Proposals

BolianAdmiral wrote: View Post
^

Okay, well I can certainly understand all of your points, Christopher, and I do admit, they are all valid. I just personally don't see it along those lines. Yes, you are absolutely right, in that in retrospect, it was also a huge error on the part of GEN, to have kind of featured the whole El Aurian aftermath thing. But again... personally, I don't see the public having knowledge of the Borg as simple as us knowing about Somali pirates. I mean, consider that Starfleet/the UFP already know that the Borg are indeed hostile, are absolutely unstoppable, and can have destroyed an entire world. The Borg do not communicate as casually as we do, so we have no way of knowing their intent. That is a huge potential risk to Earth and the UFP, and I don't see the UFP releasing information like that, until they at least have a better idea of the Borg's intent.
I'm not trying to be rude or divert the thread or resurrect an old fight. But I'm genuinely curious about why you think Starfleet would be in the habit of censoring free speech about theoretical external threats to Federation security. How does it benefit Federation security to do that? What motivation would Starfleet have for violating Federates' free speech rights?
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Old October 12 2009, 08:14 PM   #88
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Re: Cleopatra's Needle - Design Proposals

Sci wrote: View Post
BolianAdmiral wrote: View Post
^

Okay, well I can certainly understand all of your points, Christopher, and I do admit, they are all valid. I just personally don't see it along those lines. Yes, you are absolutely right, in that in retrospect, it was also a huge error on the part of GEN, to have kind of featured the whole El Aurian aftermath thing. But again... personally, I don't see the public having knowledge of the Borg as simple as us knowing about Somali pirates. I mean, consider that Starfleet/the UFP already know that the Borg are indeed hostile, are absolutely unstoppable, and can have destroyed an entire world. The Borg do not communicate as casually as we do, so we have no way of knowing their intent. That is a huge potential risk to Earth and the UFP, and I don't see the UFP releasing information like that, until they at least have a better idea of the Borg's intent.
I'm not trying to be rude or divert the thread or resurrect an old fight. But I'm genuinely curious about why you think Starfleet would be in the habit of censoring free speech about theoretical external threats to Federation security. How does it benefit Federation security to do that? What motivation would Starfleet have for violating Federates' free speech rights?
Okay... first off, I don't see why people see this as curtailing free speech. If anything, it has to do with the control of information, or the flow of said information. But to address your question...

Personally, it is my opinion that Starfleet or the UFP would not want to divulge knowledge of the Borg's threat to the general UFP populous. They might extend warnings to border regions and the like, but I just don't see a need for them to worry the citizenry of the UFP with it, at least prior to the scare leading up to Wolf 359. Again, this is just MY opinion. Christopher sees it differently, and I fully respect that. We can agree to disagree. You may also see it in a different light, and again, that's perfectly fine.

If you wish to discuss this further, please do feel free to PM me, because I will not detract from the topic of this thread any further, and will not have any further debate about it, outside of PM's. This being said, I look forward to updates on the Needle, from both designers.
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Old December 2 2009, 04:23 PM   #89
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Re: Cleopatra's Needle - Design Proposals

Hi, guys. I'd like to do a post on my new blog about this thread, and I wanted to ask if anyone had any objection to me posting or linking to your Needle pictures there.

Meanwhile, I've been sent a new design sketch by a person who used to post here as Arkady but who no longer has an account here. With his permission, I'm posting his preliminary version here.



I think it's a pretty nice design. Apparently he's posted this on a couple of other boards as a "Marathon Class transport," but he tells me he created it to be a Needle design. He had the following comments:
One idea I think i tossed in the sketch notes was an escape system. Somenone, maybe yourself, mentioned in the TrekBBS thread about either seperating compartments or installing an escape pod somewhere in the ship. But what about seperating the forward part of the hull itself? For example, there's a segment just in front of the airlock between that part of the hull and the rest of the bridge area. One thought was that was actually the lifeboat section, driven by a smaller set of impulse units (part of those being visible as the fairings on the lower part of the forward section. In an emergency the rest of the hull would be explosively seperated from the rest of the vessel.
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Old December 5 2009, 07:46 PM   #90
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Re: Cleopatra's Needle - Design Proposals

No objections at all, and as for my own lack of attention to further developing the design, I also plead distraction by other concerns, some in matters involving related skills, others not so much.

Interesting idea, making the forward section, including the cockpit, itself the lifeboat for the ship...
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