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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old September 18 2009, 05:08 AM   #31
Kelso
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Re: Why didn't Sarek defend his wife?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
One that can be easily stripped away by spores, viruses,time travel or the need to mate
Exactly. All of those listed (well, except time travel) affect the Vulcan biology... which is clearly an integral part of the emotional control.

pookha wrote: View Post

really...
how to then explain the children in yesteryear.
that more then anything shows it was mostly learned and nature.

remember even sarek in babel said vulcans had to meditate each day...
Yeah, as I said...

While I have no doubt that the Vulcan emotional control was the result of a great deal of study and meditation... both the show and the movies clearly indicated (or stated outright) that there was also a biological component. (emphasis added)
I'm not trying to make the case that Vulcan control is a purely biological virtue, just that it was clearly accepted that there was a biological component to the control that Spock's human half was perceived to be a hindrance to. Whether or not it actually was a hindrance is up for debate, I suppose, but all of the characters seemed to accept it as such.
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Old September 18 2009, 05:10 AM   #32
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Re: Why didn't Sarek defend his wife?

jkayd wrote: View Post
Sarek is kind of a jerk and don't get why she married him. There's just no excuse for his behavior - his treatment of spock, his belief that humans are inferior, etc.
His WHAT? I never got the impression that Sarek believed that about humans. He's not Soval, after all.
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Old September 18 2009, 05:38 AM   #33
Nerys Myk
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Re: Why didn't Sarek defend his wife?

Kelso wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
One that can be easily stripped away by spores, viruses,time travel or the need to mate
Exactly. All of those listed (well, except time travel) affect the Vulcan biology... which is clearly an integral part of the emotional control.
Sounds more like a reaction to certain chemicals. Sort of like humans and alcohol.

I'm not trying to make the case that Vulcan control is a purely biological virtue, just that it was clearly accepted that there was a biological component to the control that Spock's human half was perceived to be a hindrance to. Whether or not it actually was a hindrance is up for debate, I suppose, but all of the characters seemed to accept it as such.
I'm trying to think of an example of this. I'd have to take any information spouted by a human (especialy McCoy) with a grain of salt. What he doesn't know about Vulcans could fill a book.
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Last edited by M'Sharak; September 18 2009 at 07:14 AM. Reason: extra quote tag removed
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Old September 18 2009, 05:59 AM   #34
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Re: Why didn't Sarek defend his wife?

References to Spock's "human half" are ubiquitous through-out the franchise.

Even without taking it for granted that his biology was a factor (which would defeat the purpose of making him a half-breed in the first place) he would still have grown up in a home where one parent was not raised on Vulcan or schooled from a young age in the Vulcan discipline. This, obviously, would also be a hindrance in his Vulcan development and make his high accomplishments in Vulcan society even more impressive.

Any way you slice it, that old Vulcan dude was right on the money... even if he was a bit tactless by human standards.
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Old September 18 2009, 11:14 PM   #35
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Re: Why didn't Sarek defend his wife?

Temis the Vorta wrote: View Post
Kelso wrote: View Post
Spock's hybrid nature and struggle to reconcile his Human and Vulcan halves has been integral to the character since WNMHGB.

Like it or not, that's the way it works in the Trek universe.
Which has always been convoluted logic if the Vulcan half is likely the greater source for emotional volatility. But I guess you can hammer the logic into shape if you assume that Vulcans would have a motive to blame any instability in Spock on the human half.

And what if Spock himself realized he was, if anything, less volatile than the Vulcans around him? He's always had that "this is such complete fucking bullshit" aura about him, especially when around other Vulcans (Quinto certainly nailed that aspect of the character).
I think Vulcan's are wired differently. A Vulcan's emotions may be stronger than a human's but a Vulcan also possesses an ability to suppress those emotions in a way that would drive most humans insane. I think this is due to a physiological difference in the brain--VOY established that repressed memories are fatal to Vulcans, suggesting a radically different neurological/psychological make-up.

Looked at this way, Spock's brain may be a true hybrid, allowing him to process logic and emotion more efficiently than either species. Nimoy seemed to perfect this kind of Spock in TWoK. Spock was outwardly as stoic as ever but he seemed genuinely comfortable with his capacity for love in a way that had previously eluded him ("The Naked Time," TMP--before the mind-meld epiphany, at least).

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
One that can be easily stripped away by spores, viruses,time travel or the need to mate
Ponn Farr aside, how do we know the spores or the Psi 2000 virus weren't acting on Spock's human biology?
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Old September 19 2009, 12:34 AM   #36
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Re: Why didn't Sarek defend his wife?

Brutal Strudel wrote: View Post

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
One that can be easily stripped away by spores, viruses,time travel or the need to mate
Ponn Farr aside, how do we know the spores or the Psi 2000 virus weren't acting on Spock's human biology?
From what we've seen Spock is close to 100% Vulcan, in spite of being a hybrid He stronger. He has superior hearing, nictating membranes on his eyes, his blood is T-negative (like his pa). Then there is the pointed ears and the telepathy. What ever Human elements that exist in his biology are well hidden and probably not in signigicant enough quantity to make a differnce.
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Old September 20 2009, 01:30 AM   #37
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Re: Why didn't Sarek defend his wife?

Kelso wrote: View Post
... both the show and the movies clearly indicated (or stated outright) that there was also a biological component.
And when was this said?

What we do know is that only during the time of Surak did the entire idea of supressing emotion arise and begin being practiced.

Prior to, there was no control to speak of, thus no sign of it being biological. This would mean in later times there was no biological component.

Please show me where it says there is.
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Old September 20 2009, 01:47 AM   #38
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Re: Why didn't Sarek defend his wife?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
From what we've seen Spock is close to 100% Vulcan, in spite of being a hybrid He stronger. He has superior hearing, nictating membranes on his eyes, his blood is T-negative (like his pa). Then there is the pointed ears and the telepathy. What ever Human elements that exist in his biology are well hidden and probably not in signigicant enough quantity to make a differnce.
Years ago Gene Roddenberry and Mark Leonard did a recording where Gene interviews Sarek. It was sold on a 12 inch record, the title of which escapes me.

During it, Sarek speaks of many things, including Amanda's pregnancy. He indicates that Vulcan doctors had to pretty much jump thru hoops to keep Spock alive and make sure he went full term. From the sounds of things they also had to make some "changes", which I suspect involved gene therapy of some kind.

Spock may be far more Vulcan than human simply because it was Vulcan doctors who were working on him. Possibly a team of human doctors might have led to Spock having rounded ears and red blood.

I know it's not from "onscreen" thus not truly canon, but they seemed to have given a lot of thought to what was said, so it is worth considering.
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Old September 20 2009, 02:48 AM   #39
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Re: Why didn't Sarek defend his wife?

gastrof wrote: View Post

And when was this said?

Pick one. Whether it be the Vulcan Priestess in TMP claiming that Vger was stirring Spock's human half or the computer in IV asking how how he feels or Bones stating that Spock was afraid of letting his human side show, the franchise is replete with examples that clearly indicate that Spock was struggling to maintain his emotional control because he was half human. He isn't like other Vulcans because he has human elements in his physiology. Now, whether that means that his brain developed differently or his body produces different hormones or whatever else, it's clear that his struggle is more profound than other Vulcans because of it.

Hell, the reason that GR made Spock half human to begin with was so he would be partially like us and partially alien. This has been integral to the character for 40+ years.

Spock is biologically different from other Vulcans and has to struggle against his dual nature and find a balance. I don't even see how this can be debated.
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Old September 20 2009, 03:32 AM   #40
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Re: Why didn't Sarek defend his wife?

gastrof wrote: View Post
Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
From what we've seen Spock is close to 100% Vulcan, in spite of being a hybrid He stronger. He has superior hearing, nictating membranes on his eyes, his blood is T-negative (like his pa). Then there is the pointed ears and the telepathy. What ever Human elements that exist in his biology are well hidden and probably not in signigicant enough quantity to make a differnce.
Years ago Gene Roddenberry and Mark Leonard did a recording where Gene interviews Sarek. It was sold on a 12 inch record, the title of which escapes me.

During it, Sarek speaks of many things, including Amanda's pregnancy. He indicates that Vulcan doctors had to pretty much jump thru hoops to keep Spock alive and make sure he went full term. From the sounds of things they also had to make some "changes", which I suspect involved gene therapy of some kind.

Spock may be far more Vulcan than human simply because it was Vulcan doctors who were working on him. Possibly a team of human doctors might have led to Spock having rounded ears and red blood.

I know it's not from "onscreen" thus not truly canon, but they seemed to have given a lot of thought to what was said, so it is worth considering.
I know nothing can be further from canonical than a Star Trek novel that was never completed or published, but Robert J. Sawyer went so far as to say that Spock was born with far more human features than we see him with and that Sarek had them cosmetically Vulcanized in his infancy.
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Old September 20 2009, 03:37 AM   #41
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Re: Why didn't Sarek defend his wife?

Having a human mother put Spock at a disadvantage in Vulcan society because Vulcan dismissiveness and meanness toward her heightened his awareness that he lived on a planet of flaming assholes.
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Old September 20 2009, 03:39 AM   #42
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Re: Why didn't Sarek defend his wife?

Dennis wrote: View Post
Having a human mother put Spock at a disadvantage in Vulcan society because Vulcan dismissiveness and meanness toward her heightened his awareness that he lived on a planet of flaming assholes.
This.
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Old September 20 2009, 05:47 AM   #43
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Re: Why didn't Sarek defend his wife?

Kelso wrote: View Post
gastrof wrote: View Post

And when was this said?

Pick one. Whether it be the Vulcan Priestess in TMP claiming that Vger was stirring Spock's human half or the computer in IV asking how how he feels or Bones stating that Spock was afraid of letting his human side show, the franchise is replete with examples that clearly indicate that Spock was struggling to maintain his emotional control because he was half human. He isn't like other Vulcans because he has human elements in his physiology. Now, whether that means that his brain developed differently or his body produces different hormones or whatever else, it's clear that his struggle is more profound than other Vulcans because of it.

Hell, the reason that GR made Spock half human to begin with was so he would be partially like us and partially alien. This has been integral to the character for 40+ years.

Spock is biologically different from other Vulcans and has to struggle against his dual nature and find a balance. I don't even see how this can be debated.
But its been show that Spock is the equal and possibly the superior to full blooded Vulcans. So any doubts by the Vulcan Priestess or who ever programmed the computer (Didn't Amanda slip that question in?) come from their own prejudices and misconceptions, not from Spock's physiology/biology/whatever. Spock's real struggle isn't controling his "human half" but finding a place where he "fits in". Where he can be Spock and not the Hybrid or the Freak. Vulcan was obviously not that place ( as seen in Yesteryear and ST09 and TMP)
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Old September 20 2009, 06:18 AM   #44
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Re: Why didn't Sarek defend his wife?

For all their vaunted logic, Vulcans may be one of the most racist species we have ever seen in Trek.
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Old September 20 2009, 06:19 AM   #45
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Re: Why didn't Sarek defend his wife?

Nerys Myk wrote: View Post
But its been show that Spock is the equal and possibly the superior to full blooded Vulcans.
He hasn't been shown to have greater emotional control, though. On the contrary, he has always had a more difficult time due to his human half.

The Vulcan Science Elder (or whatever his name was) simply said, "You have surpassed the expectations of your instructors, your final record is flawless" ... and... "It is truly remarkable, Spock, that you have achieved so much despite your limitations." It's not like he was telling "yo mamma" jokes. For a Vulcan, he was being complimentary.


So any doubts by the Vulcan Priestess or who ever programmed the computer (Didn't Amanda slip that question in?) come from their own prejudices and misconceptions, not from Spock's physiology/biology/whatever.
The Vulcan Priestess mind melded with Spock and saw that Vger was stirring his human half and Amanda simply said, "You're half human, Spock. The computer knows that."

Neither was speaking from personal prejudice.
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