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Old January 1 2010, 09:02 PM   #196
Alpha_Geek
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Re: Obama Space Plan: Return to Moon: "No Go"

So which Chicago or Illinois company has an aerospace division? It would be nice to know who will build the Obamarocket.

From the tone of the articles, it sounds like Atlas V Heavy and Delta IV Heavy are being excluded along with Ares V.
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Old January 1 2010, 11:33 PM   #197
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Re: Obama Space Plan: Return to Moon: "No Go"

sojourner wrote: View Post
want to rationalize throwing money into the sky
Sigh. The money gets spent here on earth and generates jobs.

And yes, your post was mostly a rant in reply to a troll. Off topic. If you want to complain about not having a job go to misc. or TNZ.
*sigh*

The money gets spent here on Earth and generates limited-time jobs for a few highly technical-skilled people in over-priced industries and returns very little except mixed satisfaction for those seeking ARM-CHAIR GRAND ADVENTURE.

I'm not against spending money on such ventures but there is a TIME for such things. NOW is NOT such a time. No, I do NOT believe we should solve EVERY LAST PROBLEM here before we go there but there have BEEN better times to do it and there will again BE better times. There is NOTHING NEW on the Moon or Mars. They're not going to disappear, you know.

And, once again, too bad for you that you take exception to my use of personal examples to illustrate my perspective rather than the abstract of "people". But it hardly qualifies my perspective as a "rant".
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Old January 2 2010, 12:20 AM   #198
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Re: Obama Space Plan: Return to Moon: "No Go"

1. the space shuttles will be retired within the next 18 months. IF Aries I and the Orion spacecraft are ready on time that will leave America about 4 long years without operational manned spacecraft. NASA having already flown the Aries Ix, any substitutes are certainly at a much earlier stage of development. The added time in development would add years to America's absence from space, probably beyond the three year extension to 2018.

2. For "rocket science" I don't think Aries I is very complicated. The first stage is basically a single solid propelant booster from the shuttle program with a fifth segment added. Those boosters have been reliable since the modulations prompted by the Challenger accident. They are similar to the boosters used by some of the launch vehicles used by America and other nations to launch satellites and scientific probes. There basically a pipe lined with a layer of solid propellant with a cap on one end and a hydraulicly steerable nozzle on the other end. Any substitute is going to need a steerable nozzle anyway, so I don't see how an effective substitute could be significantly simpler. A liquid fueled first stage would require the addition of complicated propellant pumps, plumbing and valves. The second stage of Aries I uses an updated version of the same liquid fueled motor used for the third stage of the 1960's vintage Saturn V.

3. Orion is basically an enlarged Apollo with solar panels substituting for the service module's fuel cells. That electrical modification is neccesitated by NASA's plans to dock an Orion at the ISS as a "life boat" for extended periods. Fuel cells require supplies of oxygen and hydrogen that are normally supplied in super cooled cryogenic form to avoid the weight of high pressure storage tanks. The long period aloft would result in those supplies boiling away. Test articles based on the Orion have already been used to verify the feasibility of the design. Those tests would have to be repeated if a substitute spacecraft is to be used.

4. Continued use of the Aries I and Orion would require the continued construction of new equipment (second stage, service module and capsule) for each flight with the accompanied expenditures for labor and materials. As usual those funds would be subsequently be spend in the terrestrial economy for industrial, commercial and family purchases.
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Old January 2 2010, 01:05 AM   #199
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Re: Obama Space Plan: Return to Moon: "No Go"

Yeah, but all Ares-Ix was was a Shuttle SRB with a cock extender attached to it. No J2 motor, no fuelled upper stage, etc etc. Pretty much dog and pony show.

Ares-I has a long way to go as a launch vehicle, but it's the fast and dirty way to "next gen" (hahaha) manned flight since J-2's have been man rated for over 40 years, and SRBs over 20.
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Old January 2 2010, 01:06 AM   #200
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Re: Obama Space Plan: Return to Moon: "No Go"

Zachary Smith wrote: View Post
*sigh*

The money gets spent here on Earth and generates limited-time jobs for a few highly technical-skilled people in over-priced industries and returns very little except mixed satisfaction for those seeking ARM-CHAIR GRAND ADVENTURE.

I'm not against spending money on such ventures but there is a TIME for such things. NOW is NOT such a time. No, I do NOT believe we should solve EVERY LAST PROBLEM here before we go there but there have BEEN better times to do it and there will again BE better times. There is NOTHING NEW on the Moon or Mars. They're not going to disappear, you know.

And, once again, too bad for you that you take exception to my use of personal examples to illustrate my perspective rather than the abstract of "people". But it hardly qualifies my perspective as a "rant".
Hate to break it to you, but with nearly 7 billion people on the planet, technically everything that gets done is "arm chair adventure" to almost everyone else.

Why is now such a bad time? Is there a world war? a cold war? Major outbreak? Is the less than 1% of the U.S. budget spent on NASA going to make or break anything? There will never be a good time to do these types of things. You just have to make the time.


And yes, 6 paragraphs about your job history/issues with no comment on the subject of the original post does seem more like axe grinding and venting about your current situation more than any interest in the subject at hand.
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Old January 2 2010, 01:45 AM   #201
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Re: Obama Space Plan: Return to Moon: "No Go"

^^

Dude, if 10% (minimum) unemployment, record deficits, two minor but LENGTHY wars and an overall world economy in peril seem insufficient to compel you that we have more PRESSING concerns than grabbing a handful of rocks that haven't changed in billions of years and WON'T change much in billions more if left alone, maybe you DO need a World War to get your attention. There ARE better times for such adventures--times of prosperity when there is low unemployment and the economy is booming. We've hd them before and we'll have them again.

You're just frustrated because what you desire is a "want-it" not "need-it" item and these are pretty much "need-it" and not "want-it" times. Don't do me a disservice. I WATCHED the moon landings on live TV. I'd LOVE to see people on Mars before I'm gone and I suspect that I've probably got at least 20 years LESS time to look forward to that than most folks posting around here. Mine is NOT an indictment of manned space flight nor a condemnation of money spent on space exploration in general. All I'm saying is that this is not the RIGHT time because there are more urgent matters at home and your desire here is a significant expense with a self-limiting and NON-URGENT return. It'll KEEP.
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Old January 2 2010, 02:29 AM   #202
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Re: Obama Space Plan: Return to Moon: "No Go"

SilentP wrote: View Post
sojourner wrote: View Post
SilentP wrote: View Post

....ummm, where do the schools in the US get their funding then?
School funding does not come from the federal budget. It is provided by the budgets of the individual states.
Ah righto.
Actually, some of it is state, and some of it is federal.

Lindley wrote: View Post
John Picard wrote: View Post
If the Department of Education is so successful, why do test scores in the US continue to rank so low out of industrialized nations.
After watching "The Wire", I can't help but cringe whenever someone brings up test scores as a metric.

The drive to boost test scores can in some cases actually be damaging to the education of the child.
Test scores are the only metric we have that is even semi-objective. Either they know the material or they don't.

It doesn't help that our schools no longer properly discipline students, nor do they stick to teaching essential knowledge.

Back on topic: we need sattelite/instrument package launch capability and the ability to watch for and respond to potential "earth impactors". Other than those programs, NASA should be shut down.
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Old January 2 2010, 05:20 AM   #203
sojourner
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Re: Obama Space Plan: Return to Moon: "No Go"

Zachary Smith wrote: View Post
^^

Dude, if 10% (minimum) unemployment, record deficits, two minor but LENGTHY wars and an overall world economy in peril seem insufficient to compel you that we have more PRESSING concerns than grabbing a handful of rocks that haven't changed in billions of years and WON'T change much in billions more if left alone, maybe you DO need a World War to get your attention. There ARE better times for such adventures--times of prosperity when there is low unemployment and the economy is booming. We've hd them before and we'll have them again.

You're just frustrated because what you desire is a "want-it" not "need-it" item and these are pretty much "need-it" and not "want-it" times. Don't do me a disservice. I WATCHED the moon landings on live TV. I'd LOVE to see people on Mars before I'm gone and I suspect that I've probably got at least 20 years LESS time to look forward to that than most folks posting around here. Mine is NOT an indictment of manned space flight nor a condemnation of money spent on space exploration in general. All I'm saying is that this is not the RIGHT time because there are more urgent matters at home and your desire here is a significant expense with a self-limiting and NON-URGENT return. It'll KEEP.

Well, considering we could reduce the defense budget by the amount we pay for NASA without the DoD even noticing, I think we are pretty safe with continuing the program we have. I agree that we should not be throwing major increases to NASA. We need NASA to learn not to waste money like they have with the broken Ares program. Ares failed when it became "shuttle derived" in name only. Jupiter is a better system but NASA won't use it out of pride. We can only hope Ares V lite inherits some of the work done for Jupiter.

Oh, yea, I missed the Apollo missions by a couple years. But I have watched the Skylabs, Apollo/Soyuz, and most shuttle launches from my BACKYARD.(see, I can yell in all caps too) I figure I have about the same time left to see a Mars landing as you. More than likely it will be a commercial mission, not NASA. SpaceX be praised!
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Old January 2 2010, 05:32 PM   #204
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Re: Obama Space Plan: Return to Moon: "No Go"

RobertVA wrote: View Post
1. the space shuttles will be retired within the next 18 months.
STS-133 is scheduled to launch on September 16, or just over 9 months from now.
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Old January 27 2010, 06:16 PM   #205
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Re: Obama Space Plan: Return to Moon: "No Go"

Obama aims to ax moon mission


NASA's plans to return astronauts to the moon are dead. So are the rockets being designed to take them there — that is, if President Barack Obama gets his way.

When the White House releases his budget proposal Monday, there will be no money for the Constellation program that was supposed to return humans to the moon by 2020. The troubled and expensive Ares I rocket that was to replace the space shuttle to ferry humans to space will be gone, along with money for its bigger brother, the Ares V cargo rocket that was to launch the fuel and supplies needed to take humans back to the moon.

There will be no lunar landers, no moon bases, no Constellation program at all.

In their place, according to White House insiders, agency officials, industry executives and congressional sources familiar with Obama's long-awaited plans for the space agency, NASA will look at developing a new "heavy-lift" rocket that one day will take humans and robots to explore beyond low Earth orbit. But that day will be years — possibly even a decade or more — away **READ THE ARTICLE FOR MORE**
I'm all for more exploration using probes, robots, and unmanned vehicles. They're cheaper and very reliable. Use them until technology develops to a point when man *really* needs to travel beyond the moon.
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Old January 27 2010, 06:24 PM   #206
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Re: Obama Space Plan: Return to Moon: "No Go"

John Picard wrote: View Post
I'm all for more exploration using probes, robots, and unmanned vehicles. They're cheaper and very reliable. Use them until technology develops to a point when man *really* needs to travel beyond the moon.
It's not technology that will create this iperative. It's population pressure, John Picard. It's the need for resources, necessary for sustaining the economic/agricultural growth.
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Old January 27 2010, 07:12 PM   #207
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Re: Obama Space Plan: Return to Moon: "No Go"

Aries 1, Aries 5 and Orion are dead. http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/...,6969808.story Typical waste from the Federal Government. They start something then kill it when a new Administration comes to power. Time to remove NASA's direction from control of the Federal Government. Reminds me of the SSC and X-33.
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Old January 28 2010, 12:31 AM   #208
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Re: Obama Space Plan: Return to Moon: "No Go"

^If you knew anything about Ares you would know this was good news. That program has been a mess from the start. They should adopt Direct/Jupiter.

This article also has no new news. It's just regurgitated reporting.

Also, can someone point to where in the article it says Orion is canceled? Orion is one of the few things that may actually survive the Constellation program. Most likely it will end up flying on manrated Atlas 5's.
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Old January 28 2010, 01:08 AM   #209
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Re: Obama Space Plan: Return to Moon: "No Go"

At first glance it sounds like they're taking the Flexible Path option recommended by the panel a few months back. If so, this is a good thing.
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Old January 28 2010, 06:28 AM   #210
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Re: Obama Space Plan: Return to Moon: "No Go"

As I said in the other thread there will allways be problems, get rid of pork and other crap before attacking the peanuts NASA gets....

Have my doubts about flexible path why go there if yah cant land on Mars etc

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