Trek romances - the good, the bad, and the boring?

[Mach5]

Vulcan Princess wrote:

---

One pairing that I wish the writers had done more with was Seven and the EMH. They were both at similar levels of emotional development, and they seemed to have a lot in common. They cared for one another, and I think they would have been really good for each other.

Can you really imagine those two french kissing? Because I cringe at the very idea.

[Stardate]

One of my favorite romance relationship is Kirk & the Enterprise(Orginal/Refit).

[Nerys Ghemor]

PSGarak wrote:

---

I liked what developed between Sisko and Kassidy Yates. I felt that as relationships went in Trek, it was not only believable, but mature and enjoyable to watch.

I agree...that absolutely worked.

I hated Miles O'Brien's relationship with Keiko. She was whiny, rude and constantly disrespectful. Before somebody jumps me about saying "a woman should respect her man", that is not what I mean by that at all. I mean that in a good marriage, there is mutual respect. Keiko talked to Miles as though he were a five year old, and for a reason I can't fathom, he just took it. She knew she was marrying a Starfleet engineer when she got into that relationship. Harping and nagging on him about her career needs not getting met was just stupid, considering she made that decision.

Exactly. If a man acted the way Keiko did, was verbally abusive in that fashion, we'd be telling the woman to get out of the relationship. But because she's doing it, it's acceptable? Nope.

As for Miles just taking it...truth is, I think he had a very uncomplaining personality I think that with her verbal abuse, she took advantage of it. To me, his behavior was very, VERY much like a woman who cannot bring herself to leave that sort of relationship. I think a lot of the comments he made to Bashir, and the time that he spent with him, was VERY telling. He took refuge in that friendship.

I hated the Worf Jadzia pairing. No chemistry at all. Then again, I don't like Worf, so I don't think any pairing for him would've worked for me.

I disliked it too, but it was Jadzia I didn't like. Just like Keiko, I felt she was rude and dismissive of him and his values. Worf I could live with even if he's not my absolute favorite.

I wish they had let Andrew Robinson have his way about portraying Garak as bisexual. The friendship chemistry he had with Bashir was more interesting than any romantic pairing on that show. I wouldn't have even cared if Bashir didn't feel the same way because he was straight. Just allowing that issue to be aired would've been nice. Most portrayals of bisexuals I've seen in tv and film are either horribly campy and over the top, like the MU characters, or make them come across as manipulative psychopaths like in Basic Instinct. As someone who is bisexual and has known it pretty much all of my life, I find such characterizations insulting. I think Robinson would've handled it in a mature, interesting way, and I would've loved to see it.

EDIT: I think the reason I find the characterizations insulting is because so often film and tv writers use bisexuality as shorthand for "perverted" or "twisted", much like some authors will turn a character into a rapist for no other reason than to show that character is evil. It's lazy, and it's unnecessary. There are other ways to establish that without maligning an entire sexual orientation.

I think that could've been very interesting to see how they'd deal with a friendship, to see how Garak would deal with the realization that Bashir was incapable of returning his romantic feelings. If that could be done in a mature way, that would've been very interesting.

[Too Much Fun]

Well I for one think "Star Trek: The Next Generation" and "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine" handled lots of romances well. I liked all of Picard's love interests except the one in "Insurrection" (Vash, Nella, Kamala), Data's brief courtship of a crewwoman named Jenna, and the Riker/Troi stuff (especially when they got in a love triangle with Ro Laren in "Conundrum"). The only one on TNG that I thought fell flat was Worf and Troi. Really forced and lame. I don't count Data and Tasha, that was mostly just a bad one episode gag, although Data mentioning it in "The Measure of a Man" gave it a little more poignancy than it deserved.

On DS9, I thought Kassidy and Sisko and Kira/Odo were great together. Dax and Worf didn't work at first, but I finally found the relationship convincing and touching in "Change of Heart" (a little late, but better late than never I guess). Bashir and Ezri being nervous like teenagers before finally getting together was cute too. I liked O'Brien and Keiko for what a realistic marriage with ups and downs it was, but didn't buy any of Kira's relationships with the Vedeks (I still can't tell them apart because they were both so bland to me). Those were about little more than lust, as far as I'm concerned.

I can't think of any romance on the original "Star Trek" that was very memorable, other than Kirk and Edith Keeler. I'm a little surprised everyone's calling the Spock and Uhura thing in the new one a romance. Didn't really seem that way to me. I thought it was just her comforting him after his mother died, but maybe there's more between them that I didn't notice (I've only seen the movie once).

[Odo You Didn't!]

Nerys Ghemor wrote:

---

Exactly. If a man acted the way Keiko did, was verbally abusive in that fashion, we'd be telling the woman to get out of the relationship. But because she's doing it, it's acceptable? Nope.

As for Miles just taking it...truth is, I think he had a very uncomplaining personality I think that with her verbal abuse, she took advantage of it. To me, his behavior was very, VERY much like a woman who cannot bring herself to leave that sort of relationship. I think a lot of the comments he made to Bashir, and the time that he spent with him, was VERY telling. He took refuge in that friendship.

I disagree with your assertion that Keiko was verbally abusive. I never saw it like that. I think they loved each other a hell of a lot, and they had Molly and Kirayoshi to think about - they had their problems, but as Vulcan Princess says, they stuck at it. Miles is a family man, and Keiko loves her husband and her children. They both care about their careers, and yes Miles is a Starfleet engineer, but why should his career take priority? I think Keiko made a lot of sacrifices, and sometimes found it hard to deal with. I think Miles may have used his friendship with Julian to escape the odd hostile atmosphere, but I think Keiko struggles sometimes because she was left to look after the kids while he was gallivanting around the Alamo - I don't think she had a friendship like that to take refuge in when she needed to get away. I think they're a realistic couple, I think things can be very difficult in real life, and I think that love wins through in the end. She might be 'whiny' or whatever, but some people are like that, some people can't help being negative, and some people don't express themselves in the most constructive way. I don't believe Miles "just took it", I believe he understands her and the way she communicates. And that's why they're together for such a long time.

[Random_Spock]

NickInABox wrote:

---

The good: Riker and Troi
The bad: Scotty and Uhura
The boring: Odo and Kira

Agreed there on Riker and Troi. I was a huge shipper of those two back in the day . Such a wonderful relationship there.

Next Generation and Voyager handled romances well in my opinion.

What do you think? Was Trek ever good in portraying romance and/or sex? Did it have too much, or too little of it?

I think it was decent. Most of anything that had to do with sex and romance was implied for the most part. A good balance there.

[Rush Limborg]

As a general rule, I usually didn't have problems with Trek romances. There are some exceptions, but I'd have to rack my brain to remember some....

Here are my various thoughts:

Kira/Odo: Now...I may be in the minority here, but I think it was pretty rewarding to see them come together. There was a lot of build-up, close calls, etc., and...I feel for Odo, in his struggle to do something about his feelings....

I kinda agree that they "toned it down" a bit too much after they came together. Still...their story in the final episode arc removed any such concers...and their final scene together was excellently written and acted.

Troi/Riker: Good...when we saw it. For the most part, they're just friends. When we see evidence of romance, though, it's pretty rewarding.

Jadzia/Worf: Pretty good. I kinda disagree with Nerys here, in that I rarely saw Jadzia actually diss Worf's values or culture. Recall that she actually sees herself as something of a Klingon.... I'd think this is just "poking fun" on her part. And Worf understands this, hence Ezri's line in "Strange Bedfellows", about Worf finding Jadzia's barbs to be "endearing".

I think they're two of a kind, frankly--or at least, they fit together pretty well. Only a woman like Jadzia could be strong-willed enough to provide an endearing, "invigorating" challenge to Worf--and only a man like Worf could be "warrior" enough to have Jadzia desire to submit to him....

Keiko/O'Brien: Okay. At first, Keiko's attitude drove me crazy--for the reasons everyone mentioned. She was this close to deserving a brand of "whining JERK!"

Eventually, though, the writers wised up, and with "Fascination", they finally resolved this (with O'Brien being victorious, and Keiko putting on the dress, and....) and from that point on, their relationship was a WHOLE lot better.

Kirk/Rand: This one hasn't been brought up, but...I REALLY wish the writers had done something with this. There were so many hints of what MIGHT have been.... *sigh*

Trip/T'Pol: Opposites attract, in this case. Gotta love the irony--the pair that used to hate each other's guts...eventually get together. They have some nice moments, those two--including in the books....

Garak/Ziyal: Good to a point. Wish the writers had developed it more--the man of secrets, struggling not to open up to the girl who sees within him something more....

Worf/Troi: Didn't care for it. There were some nice moments of humor about the possibilities...that was it. Glad it didn't really go anywhere....



Ezri/Bashir: Probably my all-time favorite. The chemistry here was PERFECT! These two were perfect for each other--they complete each other, in a sense.

I think the writers did some pretty nice build-up in eps like "Chrysalis", "Protigal Daughter", and "Field of Fire", where the two, in various scenes, basically help each other out, and build each other up when down. And it's well handeled how they finally come together--their intial awkwardness, their joking "agreement" to stay friends--and, of course, their memorable scene in the turbolift....

I really think, then, that in this case at least, the romantic chemistry DID truly shine. It's a shame their romance was only seen for 1 1/2 episodes....

(And also a BIG shame that Mike and Andy somehow felt the need to...ah, well.... *sigh*)

[T'Girl]

[/QUOTE] On a related note- regular butt-bumping without the slipery stuff is conducive to health problems ...[/QUOTE]

You mean: The Klingon dual azure orbs of agonies?

Laying aside romance for a moment, the best lover has got to be Data. Come on girls, the guy's a MACHINE!

[Pemmer Harge]

I'm another person who liked Miles and Keiko. They had their ups and downs and got pretty grouchy about things sometimes, but they loved each other and they had a fairly believable adult relationship. I also think Sisko and Kasidy were cool. It was great to see him finally find someone after all the pain he'd been through.

[Tallis Rhul]

I don't quite know where people get this strange idea that Miles and Keiko's relationship was abusive from. If you think that's abusive then God help you should you ever end up in a truly abusive relationship. She doesn't actually whine that much, she puts up with an inconvenient and sometimes dangerous atmosphere to support Miles and bring up her family, and when she arrives on DS9 there is absolutely bugger all for her to do, other than try to make a go of running a school for a load of kids who really don't want to be there.

She did make the decision, granted, but she did it as a concession for Miles because it was a promotion. She tried to stick with it and not say anything until in the end it became too much and it caused tension. Just like it would do in real life. And let me ask this question, for an abusive relationship, how stormy were things in season 7? They weren't. They were pretty peachy, despite Miles being on the front line all the time.

If you doubt her intentions towards him then watch Armageddon Game. She's beside herself when she thinks something's happened to him, and that wasn't the only time.

[Whoa Nellie]

I've always seen the Picard/Vash relationship, wonderfully written by Ira Steven Behr, as an homage to the great romantic film pairings of the 40's. The very compelling 'battle of wills' dynamic to the Picard/Vash relationship is reminiscent of Bogart and Bacall in the classic movie "To Have and Have Not." Vash is Bacall to Picard's Bogart. Vash's brazenness complements Picard's more sedate personality perfectly. She is the ideal foil for Picard's straight man. The characterizations and relationship dynamics between Picard and Vash makes this pairing a pure joy to watch.



Warmest Wishes,
Whoa Nellie

[PSGarak]

For the record, I didn't say Keiko was abusive of Miles. I said she communicated disrespectfully, and she did. I've been in and still am in a long-term relationship, and I can tell you if my spouse talked to me that way on a regular basis or vice versa, we would not still be married. Apparently, Miles is a lot more tolerant than I am.

[T'Girl]

[QUOTE=Nerys Ghemor;3370247]

PSGarak wrote:

---

I think that could've been very interesting to see how they'd deal with a friendship, to see how Garak would deal with the realization that Bashir was incapable of returning his romantic feelings. If that could be done in a mature way, that would've been very interesting.

I agree, but that said, you - or a shows writer - can't be afraid to make a villian gay. Because then you're going to far towards political correctness.

One of my favorite sci-fi novel is "Dune," the chief villian, Baron Valdamir Harkonnan, is a homosexual (also a pedophile and a sadist) having him be such in no way harms those of my sexual orientation.

I don't find gay psych or evil charactors insulting in the least. We are the good people and the bad.

So maybe I don't agree

[PSGarak]

T'Girl wrote:

---

I agree, but that said, you - or a shows writer - can't be afraid to make a villian gay. Because then you're going to far towards political correctness.

One of my favorite sci-fi novel is "Dune," the chief villian, Baron Valdamir Harkonnan, is a homosexual (also a pedophile and a sadist) having him be such in no way harms those of my sexual orientation.

I don't find gay psych or evil charactors insulting in the least. We are the good people and the bad.

So maybe I don't agree

Oh, no, not at all. I love the Dune series, too. Herbert, and his son in carrying on the series in later books and prequels, created a thoroughly loathsome villain in the Baron. They didn't use his being a homosexual as shorthand for "evil" or "twisted". It was an incidental detail about the character that wasn't given primary focus or play.

I don't automatically find making a villain gay or bisexual offensive. I find it offensive if that's the primary way the writers try to use to drive that point home, and there are way too many examples out there where they do just that.

[Rush Limborg]

^I agree. To use homosexuality as "proof" of evil just isn't cool. (Regardless of my social-political views--and you all know them by now--still, such bashing is, quite frankly, intolerable. And I'm far from the only right-winger who feels that way....)

To use it as a characteristic (i.e. a matter of happenstance), is perfectly fine--as was the case with Intendant Kira. There, it was just an example of "she recognizes no limits for herself", or something like that.