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Old September 4 2009, 02:03 PM   #46
exodus
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Re: Borg Origin

Brit wrote: View Post

And this is the difference, it's why I told Exodus to take his theory and write something within the time frame of what we do know about the Borg.



This is the difference. I have to know how the Borg began, and I'll pretty much guarantee that in his own mind, David Mack had to know too. Do I agree with his beginning, No! I've been there and I don't think his version fits with canon but what I'm saying is that he had to work all that out to his own satisfaction to write what he did.

It's fine to be a reader that wants the mysterious villain, but you should know that there are readers coming from other directions that do want to know the beginning and when the little that they are given is unsatisfactory, they write it themselves.

No one has to agree with my beginning, but they need to respect my version because it's just as right as anyone else’s.

Brit
Actually, it kinda sounds like you wanna be right while disregarding any other theories.
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Old September 6 2009, 01:01 PM   #47
JB2005
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Re: Borg Origin

Brit wrote: View Post
It's ok as a reader to not want to know the beginning of the Borg, but the "writer" has to know. In some form or another in order to give some kind of truth to what he or she writes and I cannot say this strongly enough "The Writer Has To Know."

And this is the difference, it's why I told Exodus to take his theory and write something within the time frame of what we do know about the Borg.

The beginning is a part of the "world building" that every writer goes through and I stopped being just a Trek reader a very long time ago. I write it and I've been told that I'm pretty good at writing it too.

There are a lot of "rules" to writing that are more or less followed so long as you don't follow them off a cliff (thank you C.J. Cherryth). There is however one true axiom, "the reader doesn't get to know everything the writer knows."

This is the difference. I have to know how the Borg began, and I'll pretty much guarantee that in his own mind, David Mack had to know too. Do I agree with his beginning, No! I've been there and I don't think his version fits with canon but what I'm saying is that he had to work all that out to his own satisfaction to write what he did.

It's fine to be a reader that wants the mysterious villain, but you should know that there are readers coming from other directions that do want to know the beginning and when the little that they are given is unsatisfactory, they write it themselves.

No one has to agree with my beginning, but they need to respect my version because it's just as right as anyone else’s.

Brit
No it's Not. Admittedly DM's version isn't canon. But it has been sanctioned by Paramount, who own the Star Trek Licence.

His has been given the nod by the people who own Star Trek. Yours hasn't.
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Old September 6 2009, 02:56 PM   #48
Brit
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Re: Borg Origin

Tell that to Margaret Wander Bonanno and her "Strangers from the Sky", books are no more canon than fan fiction. It's an open field because if you don't write what we want to read, we will write it ourselves.

Sanctioned by Paramount only means he got money for writing it.

Brit
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Old September 6 2009, 03:05 PM   #49
JB2005
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Re: Borg Origin

^ And if they didn't agree with it then they wouldn't have given him the money...
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Old September 6 2009, 03:34 PM   #50
rahullak
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Re: Borg Origin

Brit wrote: View Post

Sanctioned by Paramount only means he got money for writing it.

Brit
Actually, I don't think its just money. The editors at Pocket Books, the authors and CBS/Paramount work to make sure that any book that comes out is consistent with on-screen canon. If you want more clarification you can ask at the Trek Literature forum where authors, editors and other folk post regularly and would be able to clarify, although you might not want to ask "what is canon", since that's almost become a taboo question over there
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Old September 6 2009, 04:26 PM   #51
Kurros
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Re: Borg Origin

I personally don't need a canon explanation of the Borg's origins but it is a curious subject. I think it is better to have this sort of speculation.

I certainly don't think new Trek can answer it and I agree with Brit about the novels and fan fiction so that leaves it to our imaginations, i guess.
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Old September 7 2009, 12:23 AM   #52
rahullak
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Re: Borg Origin

I think its good Trek literature has explored the origins of the Borg. Those who don't like or want it are gonna ignore it anyway, and those who want an explanation can read it and decide if they like it. Works out.
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Old September 7 2009, 01:08 AM   #53
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Re: Borg Origin

JB2005 wrote: View Post
^ Exactly. She's like a processor in a computer. Without the processor the computer wouldn't run, but the processor doesn't run independantly of the computer.

Sorry I'll stop making analogies, but I need to make sure I'm understanding it and it helps me!
I always thought she was just the talky version of the Borg Vinculum: http://memory-alpha.org/en/wiki/Vinculum It is after all described as "bringing order to chaos" in the show.
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Old September 7 2009, 09:08 PM   #54
JB2005
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Re: Borg Origin

^Well I didn't literally mean the processor. It was just the first component I thought of!
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Old September 9 2009, 03:31 AM   #55
kimc
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Re: Borg Origin

Frazzled wrote: View Post
I think maybe this is the reason, other than the Janeway thing, that I don't like the direction trek lit has taken. I wanted Seven to stay part Borg, I wanted the Borg to remain mysterious bad guys, not to wipe out half the federation then disappear altogether and be explained in the process
Indeed!
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Old September 9 2009, 03:34 AM   #56
kimc
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Re: Borg Origin

exodus wrote: View Post
Actually, it kinda sounds like you wanna be right while disregarding any other theories.
You're moving into poster and not post territory. Knock it off.
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Old September 11 2009, 07:09 AM   #57
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Re: Borg Origin

Brit wrote: View Post

This is the difference. I have to know how the Borg began, and I'll pretty much guarantee that in his own mind, David Mack had to know too. Do I agree with his beginning, No! I've been there and I don't think his version fits with canon but what I'm saying is that he had to work all that out to his own satisfaction to write what he did.

Brit
How did his "origin of the Borg" not fit with canon? The problems I had with the Destiny trilogy had nothing to do with how he represented the Borg.
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Old September 11 2009, 12:08 PM   #58
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Re: Borg Origin

Two major things stick out to me. I don't think that humans could have had anything to do with the creation of the Borg, for one thing humans would have had a much lower species number than they did.

And the second one is that during "Endgame" Admiral Janeway's virus devastated Unimatrix Zero One. While I believe there were thousands of potential Queens, I also believe there could be only one "True Queen" at a time. I think that when Admiral Janeway destroyed the Queen she also destroyed the Borg's ability to "Queen" anyone else.

Finally we get to Peter David's story that has Kathryn Janeway being turned into a Borg Queen, which completely disregards "First Contact." It's there that we learn that Picard was meant to be more than a regular Drone but in order to do so he had to willingly give himself to the Borg and I think that applies to the Queen herself.

There is no way Kathryn Janeway would give herself to the Borg in the first place, but also I don't believe the Borg were any kind of threat at all after "Endgame." At the very least the "One Will" that drove them was silenced.

And all this culminates in my problem with the relaunch books themselves. They are too dark, they picked the wrong villain (they would have been far better off concentrating on the Romulans IMHO – and the new movie pretty much screwed that up), they seem to killing off the wrong people and rendering the wrong aliens (The Trill) useless.

I’m not saying the books don’t have fans, I am saying that far more fans were lost than were gained.

You can read my story and agree with me or disagree with me but it doesn’t make either one of us wrong.

Brit
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Old September 11 2009, 02:45 PM   #59
rahullak
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Re: Borg Origin

Brit wrote: View Post
Two major things stick out to me. I don't think that humans could have had anything to do with the creation of the Borg, for one thing humans would have had a much lower species number than they did.
Not necessarily. There could be many different explanations that fit with the facts. Maybe the Borg didn't start counting until later, by which time they'd already forgotten their origin. The fact that the Caeliar/human abomination of Sedin could not recognize itself until forced to do so by another Caeliar points to this. Mack's interpretation doesn't violate onscreen canon because of this.

And the second one is that during "Endgame" Admiral Janeway's virus devastated Unimatrix Zero One. While I believe there were thousands of potential Queens, I also believe there could be only one "True Queen" at a time. I think that when Admiral Janeway destroyed the Queen she also destroyed the Borg's ability to "Queen" anyone else.
Your interpretation of onscreen canon. Mack's interpretation doesn't violate onscreen canon.

Finally we get to Peter David's story that has Kathryn Janeway being turned into a Borg Queen, which completely disregards "First Contact." It's there that we learn that Picard was meant to be more than a regular Drone but in order to do so he had to willingly give himself to the Borg and I think that applies to the Queen herself.
You're forgetting that the Borg had changed their attitude toward the UFP after the destruction of Unimatrix One, according to the official books. They were no longer going to simply assimilate the Federation. They wanted to destroy it. It's not a stretch that their other rules about drones and giving oneself willingly had also changed, at least with regard to the UFP.

There is no way Kathryn Janeway would give herself to the Borg in the first place, but also I don't believe the Borg were any kind of threat at all after "Endgame." At the very least the "One Will" that drove them was silenced.
Again, your interpretation of onscreen evidence. Mack's interpretation doesn't violate onscreen canon because of this.


I’m not saying the books don’t have fans, I am saying that far more fans were lost than were gained.
Care to put up some numbers?

You can read my story and agree with me or disagree with me but it doesn’t make either one of us wrong.

Brit
True. Except the part where you're wrong when you say the books violate onscreen canon.
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Old September 11 2009, 05:07 PM   #60
JB2005
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Re: Borg Origin

Brit wrote: View Post
Two major things stick out to me. I don't think that humans could have had anything to do with the creation of the Borg, for one thing humans would have had a much lower species number than they did.
No, because as i understand it, the borg assign a designation to a species as they encounter it. They wouldn't assign themselves a number, because they wouldn't "encounter themselves" and they didn't encounter humans again for millennia.


And the second one is that during "Endgame" Admiral Janeway's virus devastated Unimatrix Zero One. While I believe there were thousands of potential Queens, I also believe there could be only one "True Queen" at a time. I think that when Admiral Janeway destroyed the Queen she also destroyed the Borg's ability to "Queen" anyone else.
You're argument is ruined by "I think," "I believe" "I think" This is not canon, this is your opinion.

Finally we get to Peter David's story that has Kathryn Janeway being turned into a Borg Queen, which completely disregards "First Contact." It's there that we learn that Picard was meant to be more than a regular Drone but in order to do so he had to willingly give himself to the Borg and I think that applies to the Queen herself.
She wasn't turning Picard into a Queen, the idea was that the queen is merely a vessel of the collective (the idea we have discussed before) They weren't going to assimilate Picard, they wanted him Human, advising them, strategising, imagining.

There is no way Kathryn Janeway would give herself to the Borg in the first place
The implication in Destiny, was that assimilation is torture, and that a person is continually beaten down, until their resistance is broken. Once this has happened, Janeway could have been willing, purely because they had psychologically destroyed her.

but also I don't believe the Borg were any kind of threat at all after "Endgame." At the very least the "One Will" that drove them was silenced.
Quote is opinion.

And all this culminates in my problem with the relaunch books themselves. They are too dark, they picked the wrong villain (they would have been far better off concentrating on the Romulans IMHO – and the new movie pretty much screwed that up), they seem to killing off the wrong people and rendering the wrong aliens (The Trill) useless.
In your opinion.

I’m not saying the books don’t have fans, I am saying that far more fans were lost than were gained.
Prove it.

You can read my story and agree with me or disagree with me but it doesn’t make either one of us wrong.
See above.
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