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Old August 30 2009, 12:38 PM   #16
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Re: Borg Origin

Farrens wrote: View Post
Brit wrote: View Post
I'm not too crazy about Trek Lit's interpretation of how the Borg came to be. I have my own idea, I used it in fic. Bottom line is that I think the Borg were a results of technology gone wrong, rather like Harlen Ellison's "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream."

Brit

That's the idea I was getting from Unity. That the mind connecting technology likely started as a wonderful thing, that slowly warped the borg's original culture.
Yes that's what I was talking about. My concept was the technology was invented to control another species.

Species one is at war with species two, the drone technology was invented to control species two and stop a war that was devastating to both sides. But making species two drones wouldn't be enough something had to control them.

Now borrowing some technobabble from the original series, one of the species one scientist recorded his or her memory engrams into some vast central processor. The machine then controlled the Species two drones. A machine, even a thinking one, believes what it is told, in other words the machine would see no flaw in its programming. Its logic could led it to believe the drone status was perfection and turn against its creators and assimilate everyone.

That part is pretty easy to come up with, the hard part is fitting what we know about the Borg from the appearances on Trek into some kind of logical whole, and if you think about it, even some of the technology that gets complained about in these threads, becomes useful if not essential to the Borg concept.

An example is the resurrection nanoprobe that Seven used to bring Neelix back from the dead. Lot of fans don't like the concept which is fine but think about this. The process of assimilation in all likelihood caused the individual's bodies to suffer massive shock. It's entirely possible that until the Borg assimilated that technology they lost the vast majority of potential drones who would simply die. We have animals here on Earth that can will themselves dead (guinea pigs is an example). A case can be made that the Borg needed that ability.

Why would the Borg pick females to control the Collective, because I believe that the job could be done by any drone that was taken young enough and given the "special" programming. But would a machine with the programming to seek perfection see only that the chromosomes of females match up perfectly?

There are animals on Earth that the chromosome matchup is in the male (birds are an example of this). There may actually be males that could be "Queen" or in the past have been "Queen".

This is all interesting and like I said, I wrote fic using a lot of it. I listened to the “First Contact” soundtrack a lot to get the mood. It’s posted in the fan fic thread if anyone is interested.

Brit
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Old August 31 2009, 03:18 PM   #17
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Re: Borg Origin

I always thought it would be a kind of nifty TOS tie in to say that the Borg are an end result of the merging of Decker and android Ilia in TMP. If you think about it that would make sense since V'ger had become sentient, but still child-like in its approach. After absorbing Decker's and uploading data about his willingness to do so, V'ger could have erroneously taken that to mean this is ultimately what the creator wanted, inadvertantly creating the Borg. This would also explain in TNG why Q introduced the Federation to the Borg knowing that they were the ones responsible for their creation. Despite his rebellious, mischievous nature, he is still an agent of the Continuum and he basically takes orders from them.
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Old September 1 2009, 12:43 AM   #18
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Re: Borg Origin

One little problem Oceanborn angel, per canon the Borg have been active in the Delta Quadrant over 900 years. Voyager episode "Dragon Teeth."

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Old September 1 2009, 01:50 AM   #19
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Re: Borg Origin

Still fits nicely with the tragic and haunting Destiny origin though ("Dragon Teeth" I mean).
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Old September 1 2009, 11:26 PM   #20
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Re: Borg Origin

Brit wrote: View Post
Farrens wrote: View Post
Brit wrote: View Post
I'm not too crazy about Trek Lit's interpretation of how the Borg came to be. I have my own idea, I used it in fic. Bottom line is that I think the Borg were a results of technology gone wrong, rather like Harlen Ellison's "I Have No Mouth and I Must Scream."

Brit

That's the idea I was getting from Unity. That the mind connecting technology likely started as a wonderful thing, that slowly warped the borg's original culture.
Yes that's what I was talking about. My concept was the technology was invented to control another species.

Species one is at war with species two, the drone technology was invented to control species two and stop a war that was devastating to both sides. But making species two drones wouldn't be enough something had to control them.

Now borrowing some technobabble from the original series, one of the species one scientist recorded his or her memory engrams into some vast central processor. The machine then controlled the Species two drones. A machine, even a thinking one, believes what it is told, in other words the machine would see no flaw in its programming. Its logic could led it to believe the drone status was perfection and turn against its creators and assimilate everyone.

That part is pretty easy to come up with, the hard part is fitting what we know about the Borg from the appearances on Trek into some kind of logical whole, and if you think about it, even some of the technology that gets complained about in these threads, becomes useful if not essential to the Borg concept.

An example is the resurrection nanoprobe that Seven used to bring Neelix back from the dead. Lot of fans don't like the concept which is fine but think about this. The process of assimilation in all likelihood caused the individual's bodies to suffer massive shock. It's entirely possible that until the Borg assimilated that technology they lost the vast majority of potential drones who would simply die. We have animals here on Earth that can will themselves dead (guinea pigs is an example). A case can be made that the Borg needed that ability.

Why would the Borg pick females to control the Collective, because I believe that the job could be done by any drone that was taken young enough and given the "special" programming. But would a machine with the programming to seek perfection see only that the chromosomes of females match up perfectly?

There are animals on Earth that the chromosome matchup is in the male (birds are an example of this). There may actually be males that could be "Queen" or in the past have been "Queen".

This is all interesting and like I said, I wrote fic using a lot of it. I listened to the “First Contact” soundtrack a lot to get the mood. It’s posted in the fan fic thread if anyone is interested.

Brit
Are you aware of the Grey Goo theory?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_goo

I think this is what they're basing the Borg on.
It was nanotech that was meant to heal them, cure them and keep them "perfect". That developed beyond their control and infested the planets population. Believing their superiority(think Romulans now w/ nanoprobes), they went out into the galaxy to "share" perfection.

I think they might have started off with good intentions to heal other species but the benefits drawn from neural linking might have driven their need to greed.
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Old September 1 2009, 11:45 PM   #21
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Re: Borg Origin

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Are you aware of the Grey Goo theory?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grey_goo

I think this is what they're basing the Borg on.
It was nanotech that was meant to heal them, cure them and keep them "perfect". That developed beyond their control and infested the planets population.
Thanks for pointing that out as I hadn't read that before. It has the right flavor for sure. I don't think any species would set out to turn themselves into cyborgs on purpose. It is a scenario used by others, the above mentioned Ellison short story, and even Frank Herbert wrote a thinking machine revelation as back story to "Dune."

I think there has been more written now, but I lost interest in "Dune" after the third book.

Cyborgs are interesting because you can use them both ways as heroic beings or villainous ones, although either way they are tragic characters.

The challenge isn’t to come up with a beginning for the Borg, but to be able to make your theory work with Trek canon, and that’s where I think “Destiny” falls short. I don’t think the Borg could have made Kathryn Janeway a Queen, they could have assimilated her, they could have killed her, but they could not make her a Queen. From “First Contact” we find out that the Queen wanted Picard as a companion, but to do so he must give himself freely, it’s not a great jump to assume that Queens have to give themselves freely too.

Brit
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Old September 1 2009, 11:48 PM   #22
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Re: Borg Origin

^ Yes it is.

The Queen was not an independent organism, merely the embodiment of the collective.

If the Borg are a Computer System, the Queen is a monitor-with-speakers. All they do is allow people to see and respond to the internal workings of the thing.

The Borg Collective is not an insect colony
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Old September 2 2009, 12:04 AM   #23
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Re: Borg Origin

The Queen is the one individual within the Collective, one only has to watch her appearances. In fact much as I disagree with the "Destiny/Before Dishonor" take of the Borg, they do acknowledge the Collective's need for a Queen.

You can't have it both ways.

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Old September 2 2009, 12:05 AM   #24
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Re: Borg Origin

JB2005 wrote: View Post
^ Yes it is.

The Queen was not an independent organism, merely the embodiment of the collective.

If the Borg are a Computer System, the Queen is a monitor-with-speakers. All they do is allow people to see and respond to the internal workings of the thing.

The Borg Collective is not an insect colony
I think it in a way still is by the way they operate and interact. It's very much like a Bee colony. Like Killer Bee's are with the super sensitive frequency. You kill one and the entire hive knows and come after you.

I'm not sure I'd call her an individual, Brit but more like "the brain". She's dependent yet independent from the rest of the body/collective.
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Old September 2 2009, 12:07 AM   #25
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Re: Borg Origin

^ ah but that's impossible. You can't have "an individual" within "a collective"

And the queen wasn't an individual in destiny, she was merely a vessel for the collective (be it the Caeliar or the Cube)
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Old September 2 2009, 12:12 AM   #26
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Re: Borg Origin

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^ ah but that's impossible. You can't have "an individual" within "a collective"

And the queen wasn't an individual in destiny, she was merely a vessel for the collective (be it the Caeliar or the Cube)
Right!

She needs them to exist and they need her to organize them.
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Old September 2 2009, 12:14 AM   #27
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Re: Borg Origin

^ Exactly. She's like a processor in a computer. Without the processor the computer wouldn't run, but the processor doesn't run independantly of the computer.

Sorry I'll stop making analogies, but I need to make sure I'm understanding it and it helps me!
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Old September 2 2009, 12:51 AM   #28
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Re: Borg Origin

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^ Exactly. She's like a processor in a computer. Without the processor the computer wouldn't run, but the processor doesn't run independantly of the computer.

Sorry I'll stop making analogies, but I need to make sure I'm understanding it and it helps me!


That's ok, I still agree.
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Old September 2 2009, 01:27 AM   #29
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Re: Borg Origin

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^ ah but that's impossible. You can't have "an individual" within "a collective"

And the queen wasn't an individual in destiny, she was merely a vessel for the collective (be it the Caeliar or the Cube)
"Destiny" isn't canon. Go back and look at "First Contact", especially "First Contact". You could look at the other three appearances in Voyager, which pretty much back up "First Contact".

If the Queen is merely a vessel, then you don't need her. A mechanical processor would serve. And the answer to that scenario is no Queen, but there is a Queen, the Borg value perfection, there has to be a perfect necessity for her. She is an individual, she uses words like I and mine.

"I myself came from species 125" or "I was just about your age when I was assimilated." Sounds pretty individual to me.

I challenge you to put your theory to the test. Write fic but stick with canon when you do. You'll figure out pretty quickly what works and what doesn't.

Brit
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Old September 2 2009, 01:58 PM   #30
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Re: Borg Origin

Brit wrote: View Post
JB2005 wrote: View Post
^ ah but that's impossible. You can't have "an individual" within "a collective"

And the queen wasn't an individual in destiny, she was merely a vessel for the collective (be it the Caeliar or the Cube)
"Destiny" isn't canon. Go back and look at "First Contact", especially "First Contact". You could look at the other three appearances in Voyager, which pretty much back up "First Contact".

If the Queen is merely a vessel, then you don't need her. A mechanical processor would serve. And the answer to that scenario is no Queen, but there is a Queen, the Borg value perfection, there has to be a perfect necessity for her. She is an individual, she uses words like I and mine.

"I myself came from species 125" or "I was just about your age when I was assimilated." Sounds pretty individual to me.

I challenge you to put your theory to the test. Write fic but stick with canon when you do. You'll figure out pretty quickly what works and what doesn't.

Brit
She also said "I am the Borg, I am the one who is many."
Which means she is the entire Collective and the Collective is her. So she isn't an individual just like a Bee Queen can't survive without the hive. They all work together as one. A machinical processor goes against the Borg concept of combining the organic with the inorganic. " I came from species 125." just means the Queen is the only one that remembers who she is, probably because she is the first. Just like a Bee Queen is the first and only to start a hive.
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