RSS iconTwitter iconFacebook icon

The Trek BBS title image

The Trek BBS statistics

Threads: 138,915
Posts: 5,388,562
Members: 24,720
Currently online: 499
Newest member: manogars

TrekToday headlines

IDW Publishing November Trek Comic
By: T'Bonz on Aug 20

Pegg/Wright Trilogy In The Works
By: T'Bonz on Aug 20

Star Trek: The Compendium Rebate Details
By: T'Bonz on Aug 20

Gold Key Archives Volume 2
By: T'Bonz on Aug 19

Takei Documentary Wins Award
By: T'Bonz on Aug 19

Cumberbatch To Voice Khan
By: T'Bonz on Aug 19

Shaun And Ed On Phineas and Ferb
By: T'Bonz on Aug 18

New Ships Coming From Official Starships Collection
By: T'Bonz on Aug 18

Trek Stars Take On Ice Bucket Challenge
By: T'Bonz on Aug 18

Retro Review: Profit and Lace
By: Michelle on Aug 16


Welcome! The Trek BBS is the number one place to chat about Star Trek with like-minded fans. Please login to see our full range of forums as well as the ability to send and receive private messages, track your favourite topics and of course join in the discussions.

If you are a new visitor, join us for free. If you are an existing member please login below. Note: for members who joined under our old messageboard system, please login with your display name not your login name.


Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

Closed Thread
 
Thread Tools
Old September 27 2009, 07:09 PM   #256
PhasersOnStun
Lieutenant Commander
 
PhasersOnStun's Avatar
 
Location: Orange County, CA
Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

Anticitizen wrote: View Post
But given your example, that would be like restoring the 1930 Bugatti today, and putting in a 1980s tape deck. Doesn't make much sense.
People do what they want when restoring things. To whit:

In 1987, while we were in high school, my best friend restored a 1940 Chevy Truck. The real deal—three gears, wood bed, etc. But you know what? He installed a CD player. Why? Because he wanted to listen to CDs.

If my friend could make that decision in real life, I see no reason why George Kirk couldn't make a similar decision in the movie, and put a 1990s stereo system in a 1960s car.
PhasersOnStun is offline  
Old September 27 2009, 07:31 PM   #257
PhasersOnStun
Lieutenant Commander
 
PhasersOnStun's Avatar
 
Location: Orange County, CA
Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

TeutonicNights wrote: View Post
They didn't even try to add any futuristic or fancy-looking things
Maybe the production designer and/or JJ/production team actually liked the look? That doesn't mean you have to like it, but it may not have been an oversight.

In STVI, when the Enterprise officers are being briefed that they're going to escort Gorkon to the peace conference, the room that they are in consists of a table, a podium, and nothing else. Like a theater stage, everything out of view is simply black. The reason is that they filmed it in an open space in a church, and didn't put up any more set than the table and podium.

Did people complain about that? (maybe they did, I wasn't participating in Trek conversations in those days). I mean, that wasn't even a "bad" design, that was really an example of no design. It may have partially been a budget issue, but ultimately it was an artistic decision, that the set would be undefined other than the props necessary for the scene. Did people argue that this was lazy or bad film making, that the room didn't look like an "official" meeting room, that nobody in "real life" would use such stark mood lighting in a daytime meeting that the entire room would be completely blacked out other than the meeting table?

To me, personally, the point is that I don't care. The point of the scene in STVI was the emotional dynamic of the actors in the scene, not if the set or lighting was unrealistic.

That is how I viewed the Communications/Engineering brewery in STXI. The "theatrical lighting on a blank stage" didn't bug me, and in fact I wouldn't honestly have noticed if the walls were 23rd century walls with futuristic windows and art and panels and the link. I was focused on the actors.

Is it "realistic" to have brewing tanks on the Enterprise? Well, if it were Battlestar Galactica, where everyone has their own private distillery, maybe. But for the USS Enterprise, of course it's not. And the questions if it was budgetary or an oversight is moot—it made it into the final movie, so at that point it becomes an artistic choice.

And for me I focused on only the actors and actions; as long as the props (tables, chairs) were accurate enough to not pull me out of the space, that's what matters to me. JJ could have done what Meyers did in STVI and simply used stark lighting to black out everything but the consoles and chairs and I would have been fine with it, even if that lighting wasn't "realistic." To be honest, when I first saw the movie, I didn't even notice the set at all. I had to read the complaints and then look for it. My natural inclination is to tightly focus on the actors, and in my opinion the actors did a wonderful job of "selling" the scene, regardless of the setting.

Anyway, none of this is to deny you your right to an opinion, and if the brewing tanks pulled you out of the movie, I am certainly not suggesting that you are somehow wrong or that they shouldn't have. But keep in mind that the choice to not add "futuristic doo-dads" is not necessarily an objective flaw, and the choice to leave them out doesn't necessarily negatively influence the enjoyment of all viewers. A movie is not a theater play, and the same rules do not apply. But ultimately, the point is the action and the actors, and if someone is drawn in by the events and the performances, the set becomes peripheral. But I readily acknowledge the opposite is also true—if you are not drawn in by the events and performances, every minor inconsistence can become even more grating.

Last edited by M'Sharak; September 27 2009 at 08:54 PM. Reason: quote attribution corrected
PhasersOnStun is offline  
Old September 27 2009, 08:06 PM   #258
BorgusFrat
Lieutenant
 
Location: U.S.S. Exeter
Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

PhasersOnStun wrote: View Post
BorgusFrat wrote: View Post
They didn't even try to add any futuristic or fancy-looking things
Maybe the production designer and/or JJ/production team actually liked the look? That doesn't mean you have to like it, but it may not have been an oversight.
Ummm ... you misquoted me. That wasn't my quote. But anywho ...

It was a brewery. It was barely disguised at all. The clear tubes and the whole Scotty-takes-a-water-ride were silly. The design of a set in a franchise that has almost always at least made an effort at giving us something well-thought-out IS important.

Actors are important. Story is important. Set design in a science fiction film is important.

Abrams failed in at least one out of three in that scene.
__________________
"Let's make sure that history never forgets the name... Enterprise."
BorgusFrat is offline  
Old September 27 2009, 08:56 PM   #259
M'Sharak
Definitely Herbert. Maybe.
 
M'Sharak's Avatar
 
Location: Terra Inlandia
Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

BorgusFrat wrote: View Post
PhasersOnStun wrote: View Post
BorgusFrat wrote: View Post
They didn't even try to add any futuristic or fancy-looking things
Maybe the production designer and/or JJ/production team actually liked the look? That doesn't mean you have to like it, but it may not have been an oversight.
Ummm ... you misquoted me. That wasn't my quote.
Fixed.
__________________
Dinosaurs are just really, really big chickens.
M'Sharak is offline  
Old September 27 2009, 09:08 PM   #260
JarodRussell
Vice Admiral
 
JarodRussell's Avatar
 
Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

I'm wondering would Matt Jefferies agree with that engine room "design" for a 23rd century starship.

In STVI, when the Enterprise officers are being briefed that they're going to escort Gorkon to the peace conference, the room that they are in consists of a table, a podium, and nothing else. Like a theater stage, everything out of view is simply black. The reason is that they filmed it in an open space in a church, and didn't put up any more set than the table and podium.
Can you cite a source? On my DVD, there's clearly Starfleet-style gray walls surrounding the whole briefing room. It's dark, but it's there.

I mean, that wasn't even a "bad" design, that was really an example of no design.
That's nonsense. It IS design. Someone, highly probable the director of photography in cooperation with the director and production designer, decided on how to set up this room, and how to light it up. That is design.



Actors are important. Story is important. Set design in a science fiction film is important.

Abrams failed in at least one out of three in that scene.
And also in the other two, in my opinion.
JarodRussell is offline  
Old September 27 2009, 09:23 PM   #261
JarodRussell
Vice Admiral
 
JarodRussell's Avatar
 
Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

I just checked some screencaps of Trekcore. The room is clearly a fully built stage, with steps leading down to the conference table. Probably filmed on a soundstage, but yeah, that's how they do it. There are framed pictures of planets on the walls, and even some sort of entrance with white glass doors with the Starfleet logo on it, and 3dimensional letters saying "TO BOLDLY GO..." above the doors.


LOL, you can even see someone sitting in the dark behind Kirk when he says "let them die." Is it Valeris? Would be great.
JarodRussell is offline  
Old September 27 2009, 11:46 PM   #262
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "We hold these truths to be self-evident..."
Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
I just checked some screencaps of Trekcore. The room is clearly a fully built stage, with steps leading down to the conference table. Probably filmed on a soundstage, but yeah, that's how they do it.
Actually, the briefing room at Starfleet Headquarters set was not filmed on a soundstage. It was a redress of the interior of the First Presbyterian Church of Hollywood.

And while it was not a completely blank set apart from the table, it was an extremely dark, minimalist set with a very theatrical air to it, designed to draw your eyes away from the background and towards the actors and the table. And there was as little detail to the background as they could reasonably put there in a film.
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline  
Old September 28 2009, 12:16 AM   #263
Shazam!
Rear Admiral
 
Shazam!'s Avatar
 
Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

Search4 wrote: View Post
You know, this is well said. I've seen it a number of times now (airplanes are very convenient for this) and its a fun ride. Just enjoy it for what it is - a popcorn movie.
That's the worst defence ever. I could just as easily say that about any 'popcorn movie' that you may have disliked.

If people have fundamental issues with the movie they're not gonna be turned over by someone saying they should enjoy it for what it is. They saw what it was and they disliked it.

Also, as if Star Trek being reduced to popcorn movie status is a good thing.
Shazam! is offline  
Old September 28 2009, 01:24 AM   #264
Sci
Admiral
 
Sci's Avatar
 
Location: "We hold these truths to be self-evident..."
Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

Shazam! wrote: View Post
Also, as if Star Trek being reduced to popcorn movie status is a good thing.
It is if it resurrects Star Trek from the dead, which is what ST09 did.
__________________
"Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic Socialism, as I understand it." - George Orwell, 1946
Sci is offline  
Old September 28 2009, 01:33 AM   #265
Mr. Laser Beam
Fleet Admiral
 
Mr. Laser Beam's Avatar
 
Location: The visitor's bullpen
View Mr. Laser Beam's Twitter Profile
Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
LOL, you can even see someone sitting in the dark behind Kirk when he says "let them die." Is it Valeris?
No, I think it's the ADC who announced the Admiral's entrance ("Ladies and gentlemen...the C-in-C.").
__________________
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
Mr. Laser Beam is offline  
Old September 28 2009, 02:06 AM   #266
Wynterhawk
Commodore
 
Wynterhawk's Avatar
 
Location: Wynterhawk is cool like the other side of your pillow
Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

The whole running gag with "Bones injecting Kirk, with terrible results". And as mentioned above, Uhura having to take her clothes off at all. I think that scene could have played just as effectively without that.
Wynterhawk is offline  
Old September 28 2009, 02:18 AM   #267
Mr. Laser Beam
Fleet Admiral
 
Mr. Laser Beam's Avatar
 
Location: The visitor's bullpen
View Mr. Laser Beam's Twitter Profile
Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

Wynterhawk wrote: View Post
And as mentioned above, Uhura having to take her clothes off at all. I think that scene could have played just as effectively without that.
BLASPHEMY!! Zoe Saldana naked is an objective good!
__________________
It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion. It is by the beans of Java that thoughts acquire speed, the hands acquire shakes, the shakes become a warning. It is by caffeine alone I set my mind in motion.
Mr. Laser Beam is offline  
Old September 28 2009, 03:02 AM   #268
Flying Spaghetti Monster
Vice Admiral
 
Flying Spaghetti Monster's Avatar
 
Location: Flying Spaghetti Western
Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
I'm wondering would Matt Jefferies agree with that engine room "design" for a 23rd century starship.

In STVI, when the Enterprise officers are being briefed that they're going to escort Gorkon to the peace conference, the room that they are in consists of a table, a podium, and nothing else. Like a theater stage, everything out of view is simply black. The reason is that they filmed it in an open space in a church, and didn't put up any more set than the table and podium.
Can you cite a source? On my DVD, there's clearly Starfleet-style gray walls surrounding the whole briefing room. It's dark, but it's there.
The source is the DVD commentary track.
__________________
Can't we have pills and cook the corn?
Flying Spaghetti Monster is online now  
Old September 28 2009, 03:30 PM   #269
JarodRussell
Vice Admiral
 
JarodRussell's Avatar
 
Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

I'd have rather guessed they filmed the Khitomer conference in that Church.

But whatever, what I see on the DVD on screen clearly negates:
PhasersOnStun wrote: View Post
The reason is that they filmed it in an open space in a church, and didn't put up any more set than the table and podium.
[...]
I mean, that wasn't even a "bad" design, that was really an example of no design.
[...] but ultimately it was an artistic decision, that the set would be undefined other than the props necessary for the scene.
[...]
JarodRussell is offline  
Old September 28 2009, 05:45 PM   #270
Cryogenic
Lieutenant Commander
 
Cryogenic's Avatar
 
Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

PhasersOnStun wrote: View Post
TeutonicNights wrote: View Post
They didn't even try to add any futuristic or fancy-looking things
Maybe the production designer and/or JJ/production team actually liked the look? That doesn't mean you have to like it, but it may not have been an oversight.
I don't believe that TeutonicNights meant to imply an oversight, just bizarre thinking on the part of Abrams and his production team.

PhasersOnStun wrote: View Post
In STVI, when the Enterprise officers are being briefed that they're going to escort Gorkon to the peace conference, the room that they are in consists of a table, a podium, and nothing else. Like a theater stage, everything out of view is simply black. The reason is that they filmed it in an open space in a church, and didn't put up any more set than the table and podium.

Did people complain about that? (maybe they did, I wasn't participating in Trek conversations in those days). I mean, that wasn't even a "bad" design, that was really an example of no design. It may have partially been a budget issue, but ultimately it was an artistic decision, that the set would be undefined other than the props necessary for the scene. Did people argue that this was lazy or bad film making, that the room didn't look like an "official" meeting room, that nobody in "real life" would use such stark mood lighting in a daytime meeting that the entire room would be completely blacked out other than the meeting table?
Although that is an example of cheap and/or frugal production design, and is hardly the most inspiring set dressing in the world, it's never struck me as especially incongruous. The sparsity of the location works in the scene's favour, and connotes something of the stuffy, rote-like way the decimation of the Klingon Empire is discussed, and the manner in which Kirk is matter-of-factly told he's to be the Federation's "first olive branch". In short, it brings forward ideas and establishes a certain mood, making it good for the scene and good for the film. Also, the meeting feels somewhat hastily-assembled and secretive, which the small, unassuming room gives a measure of credence to. Finally, a note about that table: in its sleek, polished blackness, the table suggests something about Starfleet's refined nature, as well as dominating the centre of the room and lending the scene an ominous, funereal air (greatly supported by the film's Shakespearean title and Cliff Eidelman's dark main theme).

For all my issues with Nicholas Meyer, he had some good people around him for TUC and steered the ship well, and he even taught this then-eight-year-old some interesting words and phrases (including the aforementioned "olive branch"), as well as concepts pertaining to history and racism, which I remain grateful for, so maybe this is just sentiment talking. On the other hand, I do think the scene you've drawn attention to is far more artfully done, being a sobering thing in service of the film's plot and hemmed themes, rather than the overblown engineering scenes in STXI, which primarily, to my way of thinking, exist to accentuate the film's very antithetical (not to mention anachronistic) "steam punk" look, and to provide chintzy, soda-pop thrills, which might put bums on seats but tend to degrade the artistic property they've been welded to.

Honestly, what you've come out with isn't even a good example. The STVI briefing scene can't really be compared with STXI's engineering scenes. A much better comparison is with STXI's scenes at Starfleet Academy; specifically, the scenes in the auditorium featuring Kirk. Now, not only are you talking about a similar fictional place belonging to the same fictional organisation, but a place with barely any set dressing that has a similar function in real life (i.e. as a formal place of meeting/discussion). I'm talking about Long Beach City Hall, located at 333 W. Ocean Blvd, CA. This was digitally extended by a VFX house, but done so thinly that it's blatantly the same interior, and even contains a noticeable visual artifact, where, if I had guess, the real-life central podium wasn't painted out correctly (the artifact I'm talking about is a faint blue square just in front of the stair rail, which persists as the camera pans up to Spock, exactly where the podium should be, for the duration that the relevant area of floor is visible). Here:

http://s5.photobucket.com/albums/y17...bc_vs_stxi.jpg

PhasersOnStun wrote: View Post
Is it "realistic" to have brewing tanks on the Enterprise? Well, if it were Battlestar Galactica, where everyone has their own private distillery, maybe. But for the USS Enterprise, of course it's not. And the questions if it was budgetary or an oversight is moot—it made it into the final movie, so at that point it becomes an artistic choice.
Very little in Star Trek is inherently "realistic", by accident or design. But there is something in Star Trek, especially in regards to the Enterprise, that aspires to verisimilitude -- that is, the quality of seeming to be real or true. While no-one can say for certain that a mass of water pipes is inherently less realistic than power conduits and bulkheads, it is an affront to ST's clean futurism to include something so visually discombobulated, OTT and so recognisably "20th Century"-like, especially in the heart of the series' flagship vessel, which has always existed as a synthesis of optimism and rationalism, and as a symbol of high technology partnered with high mindedness. The appearance of fluorescent lights, painted walls and beams, pipes with nuts and bolts, and characters being accidentally beamed inside a network of pipes, with a tedious and simplistic Saturday matinee-esque action dilemma, seriously goes against the flow (pardon the pun) of what ST is and should be about.

PhasersOnStun wrote: View Post
And for me I focused on only the actors and actions; as long as the props (tables, chairs) were accurate enough to not pull me out of the space, that's what matters to me ... A movie is not a theater play, and the same rules do not apply. But ultimately, the point is the action and the actors, and if someone is drawn in by the events and the performances, the set becomes peripheral.
You said it yourself (as bolded): films and plays are different. Production design is a critical component of motion picture making, and if someone in the movie industry thinks it isn't, then they're in the wrong business. Theatre plays give primacy to the written word and the way it's manipulated into drama; films give primacy to the frame and the way it's assembled for visual narrative. There is a world of difference between the two. Unfortunately, few film-goers credibly understand this, and even some filmmakers don't really get it. Production design can, and does, make all the difference.

Could "Lawrence Of Arabia" have been filmed in a grocery store? Should the astronauts in "Apollo 13" have been wearing togas and leotards? Would it have been OK if Peter Jackson just used a piece of Blu-Tack for the One Ring in "The Lord Of The Rings"? For sure, these are extreme examples, but extreme examples prove the rule. The best filmmakers take production design very seriously, going to great lengths to get it right, from costumes and sets, to props and lighting. I couldn't imagine watching David Fincher's "Fight Club" without all that grubbiness, etched into the walls, the floors, the doors, the ceilings, the tables, the chairs, the actors' faces, why, the film grain itself, or "Lost In Translation" without the urban wonder of Tokyo, embodied in its clean streets, its twinkling signs, its modern architecture, its density, its complexity, its strangeness and its beauty.

Last edited by Cryogenic; September 28 2009 at 06:25 PM.
Cryogenic is offline  
Closed Thread

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off

Forum Jump



All times are GMT +1. The time now is 01:52 PM.

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.6
Copyright ©2000 - 2014, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
FireFox 2+ or Internet Explorer 7+ highly recommended.