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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old September 18 2009, 05:53 PM   #241
PhasersOnStun
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Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

Great post Sci!

To clarify one statement:

PhasersOnStun wrote: View Post
George Kirk basically restored a museum piece, a 20th century car.
Sci wrote:
Actually, dialogue seems to imply that the car belonged to the unseen adult male that Kirk's mother was living with (presumably Kirk's step-father). There's no evidence that it was the property of Kirk's father George.
You're right, insofar as what is in the theatrical release. But I believe someone mentioned that in the deleted scenes (and in the novelization, based off an earlier script), the scene prior to James stealing the car is James washing the car. It is at that point at which we are informed that the car was originally his father's car, and in fact James is cleaning it because his step-dad intends to sell it.

And to just throw in my opinion on another point:

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
If JJ wanted Kirk to be the captain at the end of the film, why the hell didn't they do a flash-forward? "Three years later" or something like that.
Sci wrote:
Very strongly agreed. The insta-promotion was stupid.
Like the majority of posters, I too agree that this was purely a conceit for us to have the "reward" at the end of the movie of seeing Kirk in his gold command uniform as Captain, and it could have been done other ways that would have made more sense.

However, if we accept (and I do) that Kirk, like the other pre-graduate cadets, was a lieutenant, he was only promoted a couple of ranks, not across the entire rank structure. Also, I'm going to guess (just my hunch) that not every officer cadet takes the Kobiashi Maru test, that it is specifically taken by cadets aiming to become captains of starships. These two details already suggest that Kirk is a lieutenant cadet who leadership understands (and perhaps is even grooming) to be on the path to Captain.

Add to this the fact that Pike is not simply an Admiral now, but one who had been in charge of recruiting, had probably overseen Kirk's career, had a massive soft spot for him, and of course owes him his life. It is not much of a stretch to imagine that Pike could have pushed very hard for Kirk to relieve Pike, using both his rank, his familiarity with Kirk and desire for more "leap before you look" Captains, and perhaps even playing the "sympathy card" of his injury to pull favors.

None of this is to suggest that it would have been likely or smart to promote a rather reckless Lieutenant with limited command experience, even if he did save earth and rescue an officer from imminent death. But there are enough threads of why it might have happened that I can enjoy it as it was.
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Old September 18 2009, 06:40 PM   #242
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Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

^ very VERY well thought out and put. I'm with you! It's a stretch that i can live with. AND i know that if i walked out of the theater and he hadn't made Captain of the Enterprise by the end of the film i would have felt cheated.
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Old September 18 2009, 06:49 PM   #243
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Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

I remember some people after Episodes II and III of STAR WARS thinking Darth Vader was too young when he turned to the Dark Side and was maimed and burnt. Some expected Anakin to be closer to 30 or so when he became a Sith in part because the original actor to play unmasked Anakin---Sebastian Shaw---was aging and looked old when he donned the scarred, scabby makeup for the end of the original JEDI in 1983. But then people tend to forget that Obi-Wan himself in A NEW HOPE described Vader as "a young Jedi" and his pupil. Which meant Anakin wasn't going to be some middle-aged dude when we finally saw him put into the Vader armor.
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Old September 18 2009, 07:28 PM   #244
TeutonicNights
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Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

What I didn't like was that it all felt dumbed down somewhat.
For example, why did they redo the stardates thing? "Stardate 2256" is just stupid imo. Why have stardates at all, then?

Also the Brewery. The first scene in engineering with Uhura it looked really bad imo.
They didn't even try to add any futuristic or fancy-looking things, they were just great tanks with taps. What were they thinking?
I mean Sci-Fi has done such things before-but here it seems the makers thought we viewers were so dumb we wouldn't get they used beer tanks if they didn't look exactly like ordinary beer tanks and nothing else.

I liked the monsters though. They looked cool.
There have been too few alien monsters in Trek. And TOS had the coolest ones.
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Old September 19 2009, 09:37 AM   #245
Cryogenic
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Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

PhasersOnStun wrote: View Post
Great post Sci!
Not really. He/she was negligent and decided to quote an older post of mine; one I had already revisited and revised. As such, they don't get a response from me.

PhasersOnStun wrote: View Post
However, if we accept (and I do) that Kirk, like the other pre-graduate cadets, was a lieutenant, he was only promoted a couple of ranks, not across the entire rank structure. Also, I'm going to guess (just my hunch) that not every officer cadet takes the Kobiashi Maru test, that it is specifically taken by cadets aiming to become captains of starships. These two details already suggest that Kirk is a lieutenant cadet who leadership understands (and perhaps is even grooming) to be on the path to Captain.
Now, THAT is a very intriguing observation. I'm inclined to agree. It does soften the extremely hurried and contrived nature of the film slightly. Not anywhere near enough, though...

PhasersOnStun wrote: View Post
None of this is to suggest that it would have been likely or smart to promote a rather reckless Lieutenant with limited command experience, even if he did save earth and rescue an officer from imminent death. But there are enough threads of why it might have happened that I can enjoy it as it was.
I understand your position. Unfortunately, there really are one too many contrivances in this film, for me. Here is a further question (one I've never seen asked before): what are all those cadets doing clapping Kirk at the ceremony? Weren't the other ships destroyed? Weren't the majority of the cadets from the earlier hearing scene on those ships? Are those ghosts? Is it some solipsistic dream of Kirk's where he gets promoted to captain and earns the admiration of everyone, even dead people? I can't work it out.

TeutonicNights wrote: View Post
What I didn't like was that it all felt dumbed down somewhat.
For example, why did they redo the stardates thing? "Stardate 2256" is just stupid imo. Why have stardates at all, then?
Yeah, that's exactly what I've asked myself. Fidelity to source material, let alone complexity, seems completely gone in STXI.

TeutonicNights wrote: View Post
Also the Brewery. The first scene in engineering with Uhura it looked really bad imo.
They didn't even try to add any futuristic or fancy-looking things, they were just great tanks with taps. What were they thinking?
I mean Sci-Fi has done such things before-but here it seems the makers thought we viewers were so dumb we wouldn't get they used beer tanks if they didn't look exactly like ordinary beer tanks and nothing else.
Well, I'm sure commercial concerns dictated the look and feel of this movie, much more overtly than in any previous Star Trek feature. It's just possible that the Anheuser-Busch Inc. company gave a few million to the filmmakers, if they would be so kind as to film at its Budweiser Brewery in Van Nuys, Los Angeles, which they did, and if they'd be so kind as to drop a direct reference to one of its products in the dialogue, which they also did. This doesn't include what the filmmakers may or may not have been paid for obvious references and tributes to Nokia, Jack Daniel's and Apple.

TeutonicNights wrote: View Post
I liked the monsters though. They looked cool.
There have been too few alien monsters in Trek. And TOS had the coolest ones.
In addition to crudely emulating a similar scene in "Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace", the scene featuring the creatures on Delta Vega, among other stylings, like the bombastic music for Nero and the Narada, may have been a themed throwback to the era of Ray Harryhausen and Errol Flynn; that more romantic period of cinema that, traditionally, has been the domain of Star Wars, not Star Trek. It's an obvious era to pipe for time-honoured thrills and spills, but I'm not sure about its association with Star Trek, or whether these are the kind of atavistic embellishments Star Trek in the 21st Century needs or should be given.
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Old September 19 2009, 10:01 AM   #246
Sci
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Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

Cryogenic wrote: View Post
PhasersOnStun wrote: View Post
Great post Sci!
Not really. He/she was negligent
"He," thank you very much. I put the gender sign on my profile for a reason. And it was not negligence, but instead a deliberate choice to quote and refute complaints from your older posts that I found most unreasonable amongst several other posts as well.
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Old September 19 2009, 03:13 PM   #247
TeutonicNights
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Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

Cryogenic wrote: View Post

In addition to crudely emulating a similar scene in "Star Wars Episode I: The Phantom Menace", the scene featuring the creatures on Delta Vega, among other stylings, like the bombastic music for Nero and the Narada, may have been a themed throwback to the era of Ray Harryhausen and Errol Flynn; that more romantic period of cinema that, traditionally, has been the domain of Star Wars, not Star Trek. It's an obvious era to pipe for time-honoured thrills and spills, but I'm not sure about its association with Star Trek, or whether these are the kind of atavistic embellishments Star Trek in the 21st Century needs or should be given.
You are right of course.
But that monster scene had one undeniable quality, rare in XI-
one could esily see what's going on!

To make this magic happen, they needed two monsters (and copying TPM wasn't the worst way to go here). With one monster it would probably just have been a hectic series of closeups.
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Old September 25 2009, 08:40 PM   #248
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Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

how about all the water on the romulan ship
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Old September 26 2009, 05:32 PM   #249
JuanBolio
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Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

startrekrcks wrote: View Post
how about all the water on the romulan ship
Condensation!
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Old September 26 2009, 10:04 PM   #250
Cryogenic
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Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

startrekrcks wrote: View Post
how about all the water on the romulan ship
The film has a "thing" for water. In addition to Main Engineering on the Enterprise, water also has an unwarranted presence on the floor of the shuttle hangar from where the cadets embark for the rescue mission. WTF is up with that?
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Old September 26 2009, 10:36 PM   #251
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Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

JarodRussell wrote: View Post
Kinda all of the above.

Autopilot offline. What was already stupid in Nemesis (self destruct offline, just so someone has a contrived reason to commit suicide) was again repeated in the first five minutes of the new movie.

"Thrusters on full."

All the contrived catchphrases they forced in there.

The bar scene.

Sulu not being able to start the warp engines.


And the Kobayashi Maru thing is one of the worst scenes in the entire movie.
I agree with all this except the Sulu part.
The point of Sulu not being able to start the warp engines was that it was the only thing keeping the enterprise from being destroyed along with the other ships.
And you're supposed to cringe, you have to feel embarrassed for the new guy.
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Old September 27 2009, 01:06 PM   #252
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Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

and the water tubes that Scotty was beamed into was a bit much like was the film going to be turned into a theme park ride wtf
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Old September 27 2009, 02:54 PM   #253
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Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

Maybe that's going to be an attraction in the next ST Experience.
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Old September 27 2009, 05:26 PM   #254
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Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

TeutonicNights wrote: View Post
Also the Brewery. The first scene in engineering with Uhura it looked really bad imo.
They didn't even try to add any futuristic or fancy-looking things, they were just great tanks with taps. What were they thinking?
I mean Sci-Fi has done such things before-but here it seems the makers thought we viewers were so dumb we wouldn't get they used beer tanks if they didn't look exactly like ordinary beer tanks and nothing else.
Yes, its really lazy "film"making. Where did all the money go on this film? NO engineering set needs to be built and the budget is still monstrous. That brewery was an utter embarrassment, if as a fan you have any interest whatsoever in the "technical" side of Trek ... which lots of fans do.

I swear I thought I was watching a 3 Stooges movie when Scotty beamed into a beer (errr, excuse me, "water") tank and then was hystericaly shot through conveniently-clear tubes so that we could see him the whole time. Seriously, can you imagine anything even remotely like this happening to the crew as depicted in Star Trek The Motion Picture? It's more like the later films when Shatner had Scotty hitting his head on a beam ... slapstick that you can't swallow in a believable universe.
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Old September 27 2009, 05:37 PM   #255
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Re: Moments that really made you cringe or disliked

PhasersOnStun wrote: View Post
George Kirk basically restored a museum piece, a 20th century car. We can assume the car is long discontinued by a manufacturer long gone. So what would be unusual about putting a discontinued stereo by a long closed manufacturer? It seems totally plausible that he could have found an old used stereo system by an out-of-business company to put in his out of manufacture car.

For example, lets say that in a 2010 movie, one character restores a 1930 Bugatti Royale Coupe. Now lets also say that the character makes a big deal about replacing the original engine with a 1967 NSU 1000C engine (NSU was a German car manufacturer). Would it pull you out of the movie that NSU is out of business in 2010? What if he got it used, got it from a scrap heap, got it on eBay?

Point being, never for one moment did I think the Nokia stereo meant that Nokia was a company in business in the 23rd century. I had assumed that the company was a relic just like the car, and the stereo from the long-closed company was returned to working order, like the car itself.
But given your example, that would be like restoring the 1930 Bugatti today, and putting in a 1980s tape deck. Doesn't make much sense.
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