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Old August 28 2009, 03:43 PM   #31
Horizon
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Re: What's this...? TOS.5.2

Goodness gracious, I like it a lot.
The only critique I have is that all of your RCS thrusters are on.
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Old August 28 2009, 03:46 PM   #32
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Re: What's this...? TOS.5.2

deg3D wrote: View Post
Thanks, gents.

Psion wrote: View Post
I love it.

My only nitpick is with the forward nacelle caps ... they look a little cartoonish. Like they're made out of pixels instead of something solid. I don't recall thinking that about your previous effort, however, so it must be the lighting.

Speaking of lighting, I've come to agree with your notions of fantasy lighting. Technically, there should be a source for all lit areas, but such sources would look wrong on this ship. So light it with magic. Maybe it's controlled holographic lighting, or phosphorescent paneling, or maybe the light's being bent by controlled gravity. If everything else looks right, I'll forgive one or two transgressions in favor of making this queen of the stars look more regal.

Stars ...

Where are all the stars? I wonder what a deg3D amoeba looks like?

See, that's the exactly opposite with me regarding the bussards, Psion. I liked the last ones, but felt the were too oversatuarted, thus kinda cartoony. And the bussards are not solid, they are chambers, BTW. These I like much more. Oh, and they are pixels. Come to think of it, it's all pixels!
No, no, no. The surface of the "bussards" doesn't look right. The inner mechanism looks fine, but the surface looks like a skin with no thickness. There's no sense one could walk up to these and knock on them, hence they don't look solid. Capiche, dude?

As to lighting: film lighting is not reality-based, any more than sound or makeup in film is reality-based.

Why do women that just woke up in bed have perfect makeup--
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I already said I agree with you on that part.
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Old August 28 2009, 03:59 PM   #33
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Re: What's this...? TOS.5.2

Disillusioned wrote: View Post
No problem, always happy to help.


Shazam! wrote: View Post
I can only ape what's been said so far. Terrific work and miles better then the 'nu' Enterprise.
Thanks, dude.

Horizon wrote: View Post
Goodness gracious, I like it a lot.
The only critique I have is that all of your RCS thrusters are on.
Thanks, Horizon. Take a look at TMP E leaving dry-dock, they're all "on." I see that basic lit state as just on (active), yet not firing per se.

Psion wrote: View Post

No, no, no. The surface of the "bussards" doesn't look right. The inner mechanism looks fine, but the surface looks like a skin with no thickness. There's no sense one could walk up to these and knock on them, hence they don't look solid. Capiche, dude?
Gotcha. They (the bussards) are still a WIP as per the animation effect I am working on now. I will take your observation into consideration, thanks.

Psion wrote: View Post
As to lighting: film lighting is not reality-based, any more than sound or makeup in film is reality-based.

Why do women that just woke up in bed have perfect makeup--
Yeah, yeah, yeah. I already said I agree with you on that part.
Taaaake it eeeeeeasy (coffee much?), just chattin' about it in general, dude.

Thanks again, guys!

deg
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Old August 28 2009, 04:07 PM   #34
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Re: What's this...? TOS.5.2

Psion wrote: View Post

Stars ...

Where are all the stars? I wonder what a deg3D amoeba looks like?

Missed this.

This is strictly a model shot, for the model's sake. And a WIP shot at that. This is not scenography by any stretch of the imagination (I supposed she could be in a void, LOL). (And the "pose" did remind me of something, for a shot to be created in the future.)

There is so much composting and added efx, blooms, film-grain, chromatic aberration, etc., what-not, that goes into actually placing a model into a composed scene to make it look real. This is not meant as anything other than a test render actually, to look at the light-rig as I was building it.

Oooo, space amoeba... yeah...

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Last edited by deg3D; August 28 2009 at 04:19 PM.
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Old August 28 2009, 09:48 PM   #35
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Re: What's this...? TOS.5.2

deg3D wrote: View Post

Taaaake it eeeeeeasy (coffee much?), just chattin' about it in general, dude.
Oh, I think we're actually on the same page now. And, really, your renders of the 1701 are breathtaking. Just 'cause I fuss about minutia, doesn't mean your work isn't appreciated on this side of the keyboard.
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Old August 28 2009, 11:01 PM   #36
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Re: What's this...? TOS.5.2

Psion wrote: View Post
deg3D wrote: View Post

Taaaake it eeeeeeasy (coffee much?), just chattin' about it in general, dude.
Oh, I think we're actually on the same page now. And, really, your renders of the 1701 are breathtaking. Just 'cause I fuss about minutia, doesn't mean your work isn't appreciated on this side of the keyboard.
Oh I know, dude, just givin' ya some back-and-forth friendly ribbin' (there goes that loss of inflection via typed word again).

My wife and I constantly say that to each other sarcastically (Hey, teeeake it eassssy, crazy much?...), as we have an odd sense of humor between us.

And thanks.

Like I said, this isn't even tryin' to make her look good, ala proper scenography set-up. She looks this good now and I am quite happy the way she's came out, but I can't wait to get to the real nitty-gritty VFX phase with her.

And you got the space amoeba stuck in my head now, and as I always loved that efx originally, so it'll be comin', eh.

deg
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Last edited by deg3D; August 28 2009 at 11:18 PM. Reason: Proper grammar use is important...
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Old August 28 2009, 11:33 PM   #37
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Re: What's this...? TOS.5.2

outstanding job deg3D.

As for hull areas illuminated without a apparent light source, I remind everyone of the large white rectangle in "The Return of the Archons" that Spock recognizes as a "lighting panel." Perhaps this is a similar technology.
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Old August 29 2009, 01:57 AM   #38
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Re: What's this...? TOS.5.2

deg3D wrote: View Post
Thanks guys.

Albertese wrote: View Post
Dang it! Tell me, where is the light source for the spotlight on the outboard nacelle's pennant? Sorry, this is the one nit I have to pick with everyone's lit up CG models of the TOS ship. Don't get me wrong, I really like what you've done with it. It's all very nice. But I just can't get over phantom light fixtures. Just a pet peeve of mine. Carry on.

--Alex
HAHAHHAA, or the Delta spot on the hull? Or the stern name spot? Where do some of these spots come from on the TMP E?

Where do all the non-real light sources come from in sci-fi, for that matter? LOL

Laddy, transparent aluminum, would that be worth anything to ya?

While we're at it, how about some molecular-level controlled area luminescent steel?

That's how I account for such things anywho.

deg
Molecular-level controlled area luminescent steel? SCIENCE FICTION Ladies and Gentlemen! Sure, I guess that works for me if it works for you.

The thing with the lights on the TMP E was that they all seemed plausible. Every pool of light had a corresponding light source. OK, actually some didn't, but they were few enough that the ones that were explicit justified those that were not. Also, most of the unjustified spotlights were while the ship was in drydock. The audience could assume the framework was the source of the lights.

The way the registry was lit on the Kelvin or the Galactica is pretty much my favorite way to do this sort of thing. More smaller lights lend a feeling of hugeness, while big soft lights make it appear more toylike. If you'd feel up to the trouble of making that change, just to see how it looks, I'd love to see it.

I do agree with your point that ships on TV ought to be lit artistically, like actors. In that vein, I love how Vektor lit his E:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=58313
While this set up feels naturalistic, it is really quite fake. The strong key light mimics the sun realistically enough, but the ship's shadow side would, in reality, be totally dark (except of course, the onboard lights. He's added a fill light to reveal detail in a "beauty shot" style the works great visually. Also, notice that his has a second fill light coming up from beneath the ship that shines a bit redly. Nothing in space ought to provide that effect, but it does look great.

I guess I'm saying that, for my money, the big foodlights effect makes the ship harder to buy into as "real".

Of course, my money amounts to exactly $0.00 since this is, after all, your baby. Don't let me tell you how to play with your own toys.

I do like your take on this ship.

--Alex
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Old August 29 2009, 03:51 AM   #39
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Re: What's this...? TOS.5.2

Albertese wrote: View Post
deg3D wrote: View Post
While we're at it, how about some molecular-level controlled area luminescent steel?

That's how I account for such things anywho.

deg
Molecular-level controlled area luminescent steel? SCIENCE FICTION Ladies and Gentlemen! Sure, I guess that works for me if it works for you.
Well, I hate to bring reality into it...

But the above sentence is a complete piece of nonsense. Not because it's "made up" but because it contradicts itself.

See... "metallic" materials do not have molecules. Not at all. If you make a molecule... even one which contains atoms of metallic elements... it is in no way whatsoever a metal anymore.

Anytime someone shows you a "molecule of metal" in science-fiction... they're simply demonstrating that they have no real grasp of even the most basic elements of materials science.

Steel is a metallic matrix, which in some forms has some small amounts of covalent iron compounds present along grain boundaries (resulting in a harder, but more brittle, state).

Then again... Aluminum is a metallic material, which (due to the same free electrons which make it metallic in the first place) is inherently, and incontrovertably, opaque.

So I guess basic materials science doesn't apply in Trekkiedom. Carry on.
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Old August 29 2009, 04:27 AM   #40
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Re: What's this...? TOS.5.2

^^^
Very true CLB. I wish I could remember who said it first; someone on this board said something to the effect of:

"Star Trek often is sci-fi that stresses the 'fi' over the 'sci'. Sigh."

I love that.

--Alex
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Old August 29 2009, 05:11 AM   #41
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Re: What's this...? TOS.5.2

Cary L. Brown wrote: View Post
Albertese wrote: View Post
deg3D wrote: View Post
While we're at it, how about some molecular-level controlled area luminescent steel?

That's how I account for such things anywho.

deg
Molecular-level controlled area luminescent steel? SCIENCE FICTION Ladies and Gentlemen! Sure, I guess that works for me if it works for you.
Well, I hate to bring reality into it...

But the above sentence is a complete piece of nonsense. Not because it's "made up" but because it contradicts itself.

See... "metallic" materials do not have molecules. Not at all. If you make a molecule... even one which contains atoms of metallic elements... it is in no way whatsoever a metal anymore.

Anytime someone shows you a "molecule of metal" in science-fiction... they're simply demonstrating that they have no real grasp of even the most basic elements of materials science.

Steel is a metallic matrix, which in some forms has some small amounts of covalent iron compounds present along grain boundaries (resulting in a harder, but more brittle, state).

Then again... Aluminum is a metallic material, which (due to the same free electrons which make it metallic in the first place) is inherently, and incontrovertably, opaque.

So I guess basic materials science doesn't apply in Trekkiedom. Carry on.
I stand corrected. Electron-level or electrostatic controlled area luminescent steel, may be better.

Hey, I'm not a scientist, or a science-fiction writer, eh. Never claimed to be, even though admittedly that was a pretty blatant science blunder on my behalf. I spend my time in different pursuits of knowledge these days.

I'll leave the science area to those that do that well and better than I, and they can leave me to building cool science-fiction space ships and VFX.

Albertese wrote: View Post
^^^
Very true CLB. I wish I could remember who said it first; someone on this board said something to the effect of:

"Star Trek often is sci-fi that stresses the 'fi' over the 'sci'. Sigh."

I love that.

--Alex
If I felt as strongly as the way you guys seem to feel in opposition to sci-fi and Trek being "wrong," I would most likely just chuck 'em, and stick with TDC, eh.

deg
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Last edited by deg3D; August 29 2009 at 06:13 PM. Reason: Proper use of grammar is important.
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Old August 29 2009, 05:15 AM   #42
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Re: What's this...? TOS.5.2

BK613 wrote: View Post
outstanding job deg3D.

As for hull areas illuminated without a apparent light source, I remind everyone of the large white rectangle in "The Return of the Archons" that Spock recognizes as a "lighting panel." Perhaps this is a similar technology.
Oh yeah...

deg
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Old August 29 2009, 05:30 AM   #43
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Re: What's this...? TOS.5.2

Albertese wrote: View Post
I do agree with your point that ships on TV ought to be lit artistically, like actors. In that vein, I love how Vektor lit his E:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=58313
While this set up feels naturalistic, it is really quite fake. The strong key light mimics the sun realistically enough, but the ship's shadow side would, in reality, be totally dark (except of course, the onboard lights. He's added a fill light to reveal detail in a "beauty shot" style the works great visually. Also, notice that his has a second fill light coming up from beneath the ship that shines a bit redly. Nothing in space ought to provide that effect, but it does look great.
Actually, not so "fake" as you might think. There is no fill light in the rendering you referenced, only the obvious key light and a dim, red accent light below and slightly in front of the ship. What you're interpreting as fill light is actually reflected light off the ship's hull. Not to dispute the point you were trying to make, but I actually went to considerable pains with that shot to make the lighting realistic. The red accent was my one artistic conceit, which was intended to pick up the red fringe along the terminator between night and day on the planet below.

That said, allow me the opportunity to add my praise to your efforts, Deg. As I've said on previous occasions, yours is undoubtedly the best of the "updates" of the old girl that still remains very faithful to the original design. For my own version, I made the choice to do something slightly more radical, but I salute you for the brilliance--and the beauty--of your own set of choices. Absolutely stunning work.
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Old August 29 2009, 05:30 AM   #44
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Re: What's this...? TOS.5.2

Albertese wrote: View Post
deg3D wrote: View Post
Thanks guys.

Albertese wrote: View Post
Dang it! Tell me, where is the light source for the spotlight on the outboard nacelle's pennant? Sorry, this is the one nit I have to pick with everyone's lit up CG models of the TOS ship. Don't get me wrong, I really like what you've done with it. It's all very nice. But I just can't get over phantom light fixtures. Just a pet peeve of mine. Carry on.

--Alex
HAHAHHAA, or the Delta spot on the hull? Or the stern name spot? Where do some of these spots come from on the TMP E?

Where do all the non-real light sources come from in sci-fi, for that matter? LOL

Laddy, transparent aluminum, would that be worth anything to ya?

While we're at it, how about some molecular-level controlled area luminescent steel?

That's how I account for such things anywho.

deg
Molecular-level controlled area luminescent steel? SCIENCE FICTION Ladies and Gentlemen! Sure, I guess that works for me if it works for you.

The thing with the lights on the TMP E was that they all seemed plausible. Every pool of light had a corresponding light source. OK, actually some didn't, but they were few enough that the ones that were explicit justified those that were not. Also, most of the unjustified spotlights were while the ship was in drydock. The audience could assume the framework was the source of the lights.

The way the registry was lit on the Kelvin or the Galactica is pretty much my favorite way to do this sort of thing. More smaller lights lend a feeling of hugeness, while big soft lights make it appear more toylike. If you'd feel up to the trouble of making that change, just to see how it looks, I'd love to see it.

I do agree with your point that ships on TV ought to be lit artistically, like actors. In that vein, I love how Vektor lit his E:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=58313
While this set up feels naturalistic, it is really quite fake. The strong key light mimics the sun realistically enough, but the ship's shadow side would, in reality, be totally dark (except of course, the onboard lights. He's added a fill light to reveal detail in a "beauty shot" style the works great visually. Also, notice that his has a second fill light coming up from beneath the ship that shines a bit redly. Nothing in space ought to provide that effect, but it does look great.

I guess I'm saying that, for my money, the big foodlights effect makes the ship harder to buy into as "real".

Of course, my money amounts to exactly $0.00 since this is, after all, your baby. Don't let me tell you how to play with your own toys.

I do like your take on this ship.

--Alex
Oh no, thanks Alex. I like hearing other POVs, esp. when I am still in WIP phase. It's a big reason I post preview shots. I like input. I may or may not agree with it in accordance with my final call (as like you said, it is my baby), but I very much like the sharing of views either way.

It's always nice to have other sets of eyes and hear other ideas, IMO, at least in regard to my own art. I feel it helps me bring about a better final finished model to listen with an open mind, and decide from there. I'm not artistically "proud" aka stubborn. I have no ego per se to bruise. And I don't think of myself as artistically infallible and/or beyond improvement. A part of my work depends on listening and considering other like-interested POVs, that I may have otherwise not seen or considered on my own, due to being to immersed in it (blinders), or just too plain dim-witted.

Case in point, the point you (and others) have made in regard to the nacelle lights. Ya never know what may or may not come of it. But I'm always listenin' just the same, eh.

Thanks again,
deg
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Old August 29 2009, 05:37 AM   #45
deg3D
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Re: What's this...? TOS.5.2

Vektor wrote: View Post
Albertese wrote: View Post
I do agree with your point that ships on TV ought to be lit artistically, like actors. In that vein, I love how Vektor lit his E:
http://www.trekbbs.com/showthread.php?t=58313
While this set up feels naturalistic, it is really quite fake. The strong key light mimics the sun realistically enough, but the ship's shadow side would, in reality, be totally dark (except of course, the onboard lights. He's added a fill light to reveal detail in a "beauty shot" style the works great visually. Also, notice that his has a second fill light coming up from beneath the ship that shines a bit redly. Nothing in space ought to provide that effect, but it does look great.
Actually, not so "fake" as you might think. There is no fill light in the rendering you referenced, only the obvious key light and a dim, red accent light below and slightly in front of the ship. What you're interpreting as fill light is actually reflected light off the ship's hull. Not to dispute the point you were trying to make, but I actually went to considerable pains with that shot to make the lighting realistic. The red accent was my one artistic conceit, which was intended to pick up the red fringe along the terminator between night and day on the planet below.

That said, allow me the opportunity to add my praise to your efforts, Deg. As I've said on previous occasions, yours is undoubtedly the best of the "updates" of the old girl that still remains very faithful to the original design. For my own version, I made the choice to do something slightly more radical, but I salute you for the brilliance--and the beauty--of your own set of choices. Absolutely stunning work.
Thanks, bud. Feeling's mutual. I however don't feel your changes are "radical." I think they're, juuuust right, as Goldilocks once said about the porridge.

Radical I would consider, say Gabe's, and definitely Ryan's for JJ.

Yours, IMO, hits the sweet-spot of still old E, but neo-old-E.

deg
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