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Old August 14 2009, 01:42 AM   #16
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Bleeding orange and green...or what?

OK...I'd say that pic of Garak getting punched in the mouth settles it conclusively, that Cardassian blood must be red.

Thanks, guys!
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Old August 14 2009, 03:02 AM   #17
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Re: Bleeding orange and green...or what?

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
OK...I'd say that pic of Garak getting punched in the mouth settles it conclusively, that Cardassian blood must be red.

Thanks, guys!
Not that I can understand why anyone would ever want to punch Garak in the mouth. He is the epitome of courtesy and decorum.
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Old August 14 2009, 06:02 AM   #18
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Bleeding orange and green...or what?

Oh, I can understand it QUITE well.

(Note the avatar. I bet you Tekeny--in healthier days, mind you--could've slugged Garak a PAINFUL one given the proper opportunity...and, of course, certainty of being out of reach of the Obsidian Order afterwards.)
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Old August 14 2009, 09:21 AM   #19
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Re: Bleeding orange and green...or what?

You're just biased.
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Old August 14 2009, 09:56 AM   #20
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Re: Bleeding orange and green...or what?

FWIW, Cardassian women seem to prefer red lipstick...

..But blue-green makeup on their foreheads and neck scales.

Now, obviously makeup may be chosen on a purely artistic whim, but oftentimes it's based on exaggerated biological colors, typically those indicative of arousal or youth. So we might start speculating that Cardassians do blush, yet they blush blue-green. It may not be a capillary reaction at all, yet it is probably the functional equivalent to blushing in the ethological sense: it indicates arousal or excitement or exhaustion.

It may be a gender-specific thing, too. But the way the forehead "spoon" on Natima Lang was accentuated might suggest that the "spoon" is a special location where blushing is often prominent, even if not quite as prominent as the makeup. So in this theory, excited males as well as females may demonstrate mild greening there, but the shadows mask this from the camera. Only in the idealized imagery of Cardassian beauty queens and kings, athletes or porn stars would the area flare bright blue-green.

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Old August 14 2009, 10:31 AM   #21
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Re: Bleeding orange and green...or what?

JustKate wrote: View Post
Don't Cardassian bruises look kind of purplish?

And maybe we're supposed to ignore this since it's a makeup problem, not an in-universe thing, but Cardassians have pink gums and so on, right?
I think you're right--that we'd have to ignore it--since Vulcans and Andorians (more precisely, the actors who portray Vulcans and Andorians) appear with pink gums and caruncles as well, even though in the Vulcan case they are explicitly said to have copper-based blood (regardless of the visual, bright-green evidence that suggests they actually don't ) and Andorians are explicitly shown to have a respiratory pigment that can virtually only be hemocyanin or an equivalent copper (II) oxidation compound. It even oxidizes, becoming dark blue, in air, just like hemocyanin in earthly animals does.

On the other hand, "City on the Edge of Forever," "Patterns of Force," "Piece of the Action," Star Trek IV, and "Carbon Creek" all seem to think that a being that by all rights should have green capillaries or at least should not have red capillaries can walk around like it's human, or one of humanity's unaccountably many cosmic copies, and no one would notice. And this is just baffling.

Anyway, I'm pretty sure I've seen Cardassians bleed red--I can't recall an instance where their blood hasn't appeared red.

As others have noted, the Bajoran ability to carry both Cardassian added to the fact that they can also carry human fetuses completely rules out biochemistries that we would find exotic. Regardless of The Final Frontier's presumably symbolic flashback to Spock's live birth, Amanda Grayson could not supply Fetal Spock with oxygen with hemoglobin. Neither could Kira Nerys have supplied oxygen to Fetal Toshiro O'Brien without hemoglobin, and since presumably Tora Naprem has the same respiratory pigment as her distant relative Kira Nerys, Fetal Tora Ziyal must have been nourished with hemoglobin.

Furthermore, if Bajoran blood--which is definitely red--and Cardassian blood have obviously different colors, the Obsidian Order's deception in "Ties of Blood and Water" would be exposed in a (literal) heartbeat, since all Kira "Iliana" Nerys would have to do to prove that she was by no means Cardassian would be to bleed. Genetic testing and such could be influenced because no one directly involved was competent to perform it, but surely Tekeny Ghemor, despite being a little bit naive, can still tell the difference between red and orange or green.

Even ignoring the evidence, all things being equal, I'd say that Cardassians should have hemoglobin or a similar iron oxidation pigment, since hemoglobin is superior at bonding oxygen to hemocyanin on a molecular level. On the other hand, hemocyanin need not be contained in blood cells, potentially creating a greater carrying capacity in bulk. The trade-off here is stamina, as the viscosity of blue blood with the same carrying capacity as red blood would be very high, placing great strain on circulatory systems of similar design, and at least requiring much more energy to transport. I find it very difficult to believe that Enterprise got this right on purpose, but they did get it right.

I think Cardassian blood would be visible through the skin. They may not blush to show embarassment--as I think you may want to show, Nerys--because they're aliens and it's a wonder enough that they smile to show happiness (a trait that we would consider vanishly rare on Earth, if weren't we that had it ). However, I strongly suspect that Cardassians would use their blood as a radiator just as many earthly animals do. That we don't see flush Cardassian faces can be readily explained because we rarely if ever see them in environments they find uncomfortably warm. Dukat claims the Breen slave planet,whatever it was called, has great weather, possibly just to be a jerk, but we cannot rule out the possibility he honestly thinks a roiling desert is a nice place for a stroll. Probably a good 90% of the time, the only Cardassian we see is Garak, and he's usually bundled up and by his own admission always uncomfortably cold.

In conclusion, Cardassian blood is 100%, without a doubt red.
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Old August 14 2009, 10:39 AM   #22
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Re: Bleeding orange and green...or what?

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
OK...I'd say that pic of Garak getting punched in the mouth settles it conclusively, that Cardassian blood must be red.

Thanks, guys!
Oops, didn't past Kate's post. I guess deducing that it's red was a bit of a waste of time then.

Timo wrote: View Post
FWIW, Cardassian women seem to prefer red lipstick...
But since I'm in rant mode, I want to say that the apparently universal love of red lipstick is downright weird. Crimson lipstick on a Vulcan is the equivalent of emerald lipstick on a human--whether it's attractive or not is debatable, but there's a reason why green lipstick would not just be striking, but jarring. Lipstick is a sexual ornament. I figure that's why, classically, the colors up here and down there tend to complement.
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Old August 14 2009, 11:16 AM   #23
Timo
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Re: Bleeding orange and green...or what?

That was sort of my point. However, we could argue that since Natima Lang was something of a rebel, she might choose to wear jarring makeup as a matter of principle...

Did we ever see any other Cardassian lady wear forehead makeup?

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Old August 14 2009, 11:37 AM   #24
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JustKate wrote: View Post
Don't Cardassian bruises look kind of purplish?
But human bruises come in a variety of colours!
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Old August 14 2009, 12:15 PM   #25
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Re: Bleeding orange and green...or what?

Timo wrote: View Post
That was sort of my point.
I know, but I wanted to make it more explicit for anyone not paying attention.
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Old August 14 2009, 02:28 PM   #26
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Re: Bleeding orange and green...or what?

Did we actually see a Cardassian female applying makeup to the spoon or neck? I don't recall seeing that, but it has been a while since I've seen anything past season 1. I assumed they were naturally tinted.
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Old August 14 2009, 02:38 PM   #27
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Re: Bleeding orange and green...or what?

Memory Alpha says that it is unclear whether the spoon thingy on female Cardassians is blue naturally or because of cosmetics. I don't know myself - I can't remember it ever being addressed, but then again, I very easily might not.
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Old August 14 2009, 05:31 PM   #28
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Bleeding orange and green...or what?

Hm...Timo--on your theory, I always thought that was pigment, not a blush response, more like how animals of some types have one gender that has markings that are intended to indicate sexual desirability to potential mates. And the women, I'm thinking, probably still accentuate this area with makeup.

Oh, and with lipstick--I think I've seen Cardassian women use colors other than red. I've seen some (Makbar comes to mind as one example) go for a more Goth color scheme, and apparently this does not have the social suggestion of "weirdness" that it does on our world.

Myasishchev--A good point about Kira and Tekeny! I didn't even think of that, but that's a WONDERFUL point of evidence about Cardassian blood being red.

With the blush response...my personal theory is that they do--that they would FEEL themselves blush, but no one else would ever see it due to the opacity and/or thickness of their skin. (In my own works, if they're standing close to someone, they might feel a change in the other person's bioelectric field, that is their equivalent of seeing someone blush.)

About the Cardassian metabolism...as therapsids, I'm not entirely sure to what degree their bodies are able to produce heat on their own, and to what degree they must rely on the environment. One interesting fact I picked up in "Emissary" was that the temperature in Ops apparently got stuck on 32 C (89.6 F). That may well be a Cardassian's optimum temperature. If that's the case, then what humans consider optimum would be sheer hell to endure!

And believe me, I know personally just how miserable Garak must be, because my own optimum temperature is quite high compared to most people. I am perfectly comfortable in temperatures ranging from 28-30 C (82-86 F), and I don't like being in places with "normal" air conditioning during the summer...that's why I hate wearing short sleeves, because as soon as I go indoors, I'll be cold. (Conversely, after being in a place like that, coming out into the summer heat--and better yet, the hot car--feels GREAT.) And believe me, if I were on DS9, I would almost surely be showing up at Garak's shop asking if there was some kind of lining I could get on my uniform so I wouldn't be so damn cold all the time!

(And undoubtedly the response would be one with quite the sparkle in the eye, followed by, "I know JUST the thing--but are you sure you don't have some Cardassian blood in you?" )
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Old August 14 2009, 05:44 PM   #29
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Re: Bleeding orange and green...or what?

Nerys Ghemor wrote: View Post
JustKate wrote: View Post
Don't Cardassian bruises look kind of purplish?
Not sure. But that raises the question, what WOULD bruises from red blood look like under grey skin? Is that the color we'd expect, or should we see something else instead?
[/QUOTE]

Yep. Common in people of Asian decent. How many people here have purple scar tissue instead of pink?
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Old August 14 2009, 05:54 PM   #30
Nerys Ghemor
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Re: Bleeding orange and green...or what?

What's common? Bruises/scars appearing purple? Or am I misreading you?
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