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Old September 4 2009, 07:41 PM   #31
Elvira
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Re: Why no half ranks?

Timo wrote: View Post
Memory Alpha has some sort of a crazy fixation about a Bajoran rank they call "Field Colonel". It's completely baseless - it's not part of the episode dialogue, and has no proper real-world equivalent.

Several european nations had the rank of Field Marshal, it was the single highest military rank, just below the political commander in chief.

I don't think we ever heard of a Bajor general or admiral. Maybe field colonal IS the highest rank they have.
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Old September 4 2009, 07:52 PM   #32
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Re: Why no half ranks?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
Timo wrote: View Post
Memory Alpha has some sort of a crazy fixation about a Bajoran rank they call "Field Colonel". It's completely baseless - it's not part of the episode dialogue, and has no proper real-world equivalent.

Several european nations had the rank of Field Marshal, it was the single highest military rank, just below the political commander in chief.

I don't think we ever heard of a Bajor general or admiral. Maybe field colonal IS the highest rank they have.
Possibly, considering how limited in size and scope the Bajoran Militia appeared to be in the wake of the Cardassian occupation. It seemed to have limited, local law enforcement and internal security functions and relied on small units for the most part. Most small armed organizations like that that don't qualify as full-fledged "armies" don't have general/flag officers because of their limited manpower.
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Old September 4 2009, 08:31 PM   #33
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Re: Why no half ranks?

I don't think we ever heard of a Bajor general
The trilogy that featured Colonel Day also prominently featured General Krim, an apparent sympathizer to the cause of the Circle movement who repeatedly withdrew while these armed rebels advanced.

The impression we got was that Krim was a really big boss in the organization, although not necessarily the very top dog. Presumably, the Militia felt the need to have a few general/flag officers for show if not for an organizatory need...

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Old September 5 2009, 03:49 AM   #34
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Re: Why no half ranks?

Timo wrote: View Post
I don't think we ever heard of a Bajor general
The trilogy that featured Colonel Day also prominently featured General Krim, an apparent sympathizer to the cause of the Circle movement who repeatedly withdrew while these armed rebels advanced.

The impression we got was that Krim was a really big boss in the organization, although not necessarily the very top dog. Presumably, the Militia felt the need to have a few general/flag officers for show if not for an organizatory need...

Timo Saloniemi
Even the tiny pissant Continental Army back during the revolution found a need for generals. Regardless of the fact that the Bajoran militia was tiny compared to starfleet it was still a global organization that probably had numbers greater than the modern day US military
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Old September 5 2009, 03:53 AM   #35
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Re: Why no half ranks?

Timo wrote: View Post
But the fact is that they don't use that term ("Field Colonel"). It's not part of the Star Trek universe. So why the hell does MA insist on listing it?
Ooooooooh! My, my, my, we're getting just a little bit TOUCHY about all this, aren't we? Why does this term threaten you so much, eh?

Agreed, it may not have been spoken onscreen. But as soon as I put on my care face, I'll be sure and think about thinking about that.

If it's in the script, it's good enough for me. As you pointed out, the Militia does have at least two different grades of colonel. So who the hell cares what they call them?
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Old September 7 2009, 11:08 AM   #36
Timo
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Re: Why no half ranks?

They should be called what they are called in Star Trek, is all. Everything else is bogus, and we shouldn't get cluttered with bogus.

The problem here is that we have people like apenpaap checking out MA in good faith and finding bullshit that's not part of the Star Trek universe, then starting to think about the Star Trek universe in terms of that bullshit. That's not the purpose of MA. Wild speculation is anyone's privilege, but the concept of "reliable sources" should be everybody's concern, too. Yeah, Bajorans may have the rank of Field Colonel - and Spock may be Kirk's real father. But supposed reliable sources shouldn't list such things as established facts.

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Old September 21 2009, 04:50 AM   #37
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Re: Why no half ranks?

Promotions come slowly when the military numbers are static. Only rapid expansion, heavy turn over, and/or heavy loses cause rapid rank advancement. Since it took the NX era Star Fleet 3 years to complete one starship, the NX-02, without any other space docks building other new starships in sight of Space Dock 1, production of new vessels for Star Fleet must have been slow during the early NX era.

You would think that Star Fleet would have a crash starship production program, crash space dock production, crash starship crew training program, after the Zendi attack on Earth. But there did not seem to be a war time type of training and production rush after the Zendi attack on Earth.

Shortage of people willing to serve in Star Fleet? Shortage of people that meet Star Fleet standards for a rapid expansion of Star Fleet?
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Old September 21 2009, 06:49 AM   #38
Timo
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Re: Why no half ranks?

Or major political resistance to the idea of building a deep space fleet? Vulcans weren't hot on that idea in 2151 yet. NX-01 was a proof-of-concept vessel; perhaps all decisions on gearing up production would have to wait for the concept to be proven.

Also, there did exist a UESF before NX-01 was launched. It operated at least a few largish combat starships, and apparently had done so since the first few decades of the 22nd century. In thirty years, one would suppose there'd be enough personnel, enough accumulation of experience, that Starfleet would feel the need to have at least six line ranks, instead of just three. That way, experienced people who still are at working age could be organized into a functional hierarchy, instead of having too many of them agglomerate at Commander level while waiting for ships to be captained.

Granted, though, that we know rather little about the pre-NX-01 Starfleet. Perhaps it only had those three ships seen in "The Expanse"? Alternately, perhaps it had dozens upon dozens, and had already fought a couple of interstellar wars in the minor leagues (say, the one with the Kzinti that Sulu mentioned in TAS). Perhaps it was a major source of pride for Earth, and attracted the best and the brightest - or then it was a humiliating reminder of the fact that Vulcans clamped on everything interstellar, and nobody wanted to serve in this runt of an organization that had no authority over anything else besides a few experimental spacecraft?

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Old October 5 2009, 04:21 AM   #39
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Re: Why no half ranks?

I tend to believe that the Earth Starfleet had dozens, if not hundreds, of ships even by ENT's time. They just weren't all as fancy as the ones we saw. The bulk of Earth's spacefleet probably looked like this.

As for the question of half ranks: Again, just because we rarely saw them doesn't mean they didn't exist. Did we ever see somebody get promoted straight from Lieutenant to Commander? Or Ensign to full Lieutenant? No? Then it's possible that the ranks of LTJG and Lt. Cmdr. do exist. It's not like the costuming department couldn't make the appropriate insignia if they felt like it. I mean, Mirror T'Pol was a LCDR, after all...

Timo wrote: View Post
The impression we got was that Krim was a really big boss in the organization, although not necessarily the very top dog.
Krim was cool. He was the very model of a modern Bajor general.
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Old October 5 2009, 05:43 AM   #40
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Re: Why no half ranks?

Well, ST has always had inconsistencies in ranks. Why should ENT be an exception?

It's too bad Sato and Mayweather didn't get promotions to lt., j.g., to show those "half-ranks." BTW, I had forgotten Mirror T'Pol was a lt. cmdr., so there's one half rank shown. So it's reasonable to assume that if that rank appears in the Mirror Universe, it most likely exists in the 22nd century Starfleet, as well.

As for the topic of how many ships there are in the pre-NX Starfleet, I would say there must be more than just a handful. And like in today's navies, I'm sure there are full commanders and lieutenant commanders assigned as captains/commanding officers of Starfleet ships, rather than all ships requiring full captains (once known as post captains in the old British Royal Navy).

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Old October 13 2009, 08:05 PM   #41
George Steinbrenner
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Re: Why no half ranks?

Wasn't one of the Columbia's bridge crew a Lieutenant JG?
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Old October 16 2009, 07:24 PM   #42
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Re: Why no half ranks?

Mr. Laser Beam wrote: View Post
Wasn't one of the Columbia's bridge crew a Lieutenant JG?
The female helm officer in front of Captain Hernandez? Funny thing about her is...she was called "lieutenant" but had just one single square/pip on her uniform. That's an ensign. D'OH!
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