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Old July 31 2009, 07:04 AM   #16
darkwing_duck1
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

Dusty Ayres wrote: View Post
And as for 'good Muslim heroes' cleaning house on Al-Q or the Taliban; why should they have to? The story can be about both sets of heroes fighting an alien invasion-it doesn't necessarily have to have them fight the great American bogeymen just so that an audience of mostly American comic book fanboys can see the heroes kick the butts of said bogeymen from here to Pluto.
1) Thousands of dead Americans tell me that Al-Q and the Taliban are more than "the boogeyman".

2) To ONLY portray Muslem metas as "heroes" is an implicit denial of reality. By most estimates, the extremist wahabbi element of Islam amounts to ~10% of the total Muslem population. By that percentage, at least 10 (9.9) of the "99" should be villains.
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Old July 31 2009, 02:29 PM   #17
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

darkwing_duck1 wrote: View Post
1) Thousands of dead Americans tell me that Al-Q and the Taliban are more than "the boogeyman".
327 of the victims of the September 11th attack were non-Americans. Over 60 of the victims were Muslims, both American and otherwise. Al Qaeda's various terrorist actions around the world have killed over 1400 non-Americans, including hundreds of Muslims. Al Qaeda corrupts and violates Muslim principles, which explicitly forbid killing noncombatants, women, and children as well as fellow Muslims. They are traitors to their own professed faith.

Most of the people killed by the Taliban have been Afghanis or Pakistanis from rival factions, or Afghanis who were executed during the Taliban's reign. Again, they are a threat to Muslims, not just to Americans.


2) To ONLY portray Muslem metas as "heroes" is an implicit denial of reality. By most estimates, the extremist wahabbi element of Islam amounts to ~10% of the total Muslem population. By that percentage, at least 10 (9.9) of the "99" should be villains.
That's bigoted bullshit. Even if a fair percentage of rank-and-file Muslims are sympathetic to Wahhabist views, that doesn't mean they actually engage in terrorist acts. They're not "villains." They're ordinary people who have been misled by Wahhabist propaganda into thinking that Wahhabism is their only hope for a better life and that the West is an enemy that needs to be battled. Just as you've been misled by racist propaganda into accepting such a monstrously absurd and idiotic notion that fully ten percent of a population of over a billion people could be actively engaged in terrorism. Good grief, simple arithmetic proves how stupid that notion is. Muslims constitute nearly a fifth of the world's population of 6.9 billion, so 10% of Muslims would be nearly 140 million people. The total number of military personnel in the entire world as of 2000 was less than 20 million. If seven times that many people were actively involved in Islamic militancy, they would've conquered the whole damn planet by now!

Terrorist groups consist of small numbers of people in decentralized cells. Al Qaeda isn't even really a single organization, just a common rallying cry for various independent extremist groups. It's been estimated that their active "membership" is under a thousand people. Even most of the people who've gone through Qaeda training camps don't actually swear allegiance to the cause.

You want villains, look at the government of Saudi Arabia. The Saudi regime has ruthlessly oppressed, disenfranchised, and impoverished its people for decades, and in order to divert the people's rage and frustration away from themselves, they've aggressively backed the Wahhabist movement and encouraged anti-American sentiments, making us into a scapegoat. Al Qaeda would never have amounted to anything without the Saudi government's support, and the Saudi people would never have been angry or poor or desperate enough to turn to extremism without their government's oppression. And this is a government that America treats as an ally because we need their oil.

Don't blame the common people of the Islamic world for the oppression and lies of their leaders. These are people who have been manipulated and misled by a corrupt few into believing that the West is to blame for all their problems (when in fact we're only partly to blame) and that we're trying to conquer and destroy their civilization. They're not villains, they're victims.

Besides, your argument makes no sense. The 99 are meant to be representatives of the ideals of Islamic philosophy. One in 15 Americans have gone to prison, but does that mean that if the Justice League has 30 members, two of them should be villains? Hero teams represent the best of their societies. That's what makes them heroes.
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Old July 31 2009, 03:20 PM   #18
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

darkwing_duck1 wrote: View Post
Misfit Toy wrote: View Post
darkwing_duck1 wrote: View Post

There may be, there may NOT be. The timing and the hoopla seem a bit fishy to me. A lot will depend on how it's written I suppose. Will these "good Muslem heroes" be shown cleaning house on Talibans and Al-Qs or will this be a "learning experince" puff job where the "westerners" learn that "everthing they (think) they know about Muslems is wrong"?
Again, either way, it's made for people who don't think like you do. Why MUST it conform to your philosophy in order to be "right"? Don't you support free enterprise?
I didn't say it shouldn't be published. I said I was unimpressed by it.
You said that there may be something "wrong". You suggested that undue influence was brought to bear in order to get it published. You said it "smacks of PC PR." I'm sure you meant that it should be published.
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Old July 31 2009, 03:40 PM   #19
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

darkwing_duck1

Ok see this is what I was talking about. You don't want "your" heroes changed to reflect the world. I think you said create your own heroes. So when someone does create their own heroes to fight along side Superman and Batman you say it smacks of PC. Yeah I don't any problem with you way of thinking at all.

So good sir, what exactly would you like to be done for those of us who want to see stories told from a different POV.
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Old July 31 2009, 03:49 PM   #20
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

Oh good! Finally the long-awaited team up with JihadBoy and SuicideGirl!

With their I.R.E. (Improvised Roadside Explosives) Organization they are sure to be an asset to the Dynamic Duo and purge all infidel criminals from the holy lands...and beyond!

Complications arise when JihadBoy and SuicideGirl discover that the Dynamic Duo must be beheaded with a dull butter knife -- as they too are infidels.
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Old July 31 2009, 03:54 PM   #21
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

QuasarVM wrote: View Post
Oh good! Finally the long-awaited team up with JihadBoy and SuicideGirl!

With their I.R.E. (Improvised Roadside Explosives) Organization they are sure to be an asset to the Dynamic Duo and purge all infidel criminals from the holy lands...and beyond!

Complications arise when JihadBoy and SuicideGirl discover that the Dynamic Duo must be beheaded with a dull butter knife -- as they too are infidels.
Once again, the work is intended for people who don't think the way you do. I would hope that it reaches a far larger audience than that.
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Old July 31 2009, 05:24 PM   #22
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

Al-Qaeda's definition of jihad is a corruption and violation of its true meaning in Islamic doctrine. Jihad is the struggle to defend Islam against that which threatens it from inside (e.g. doubt, anger, selfishness, folly) and outside. It's meant to be a purely defensive act. The only way al-Qaeda gets away with calling its acts jihad is by twisting the truth to pretend they're acts of self-defense, defining their victims as aggressors, and ignoring the Qur'an's unambiguous prohibition against killing noncombatants, women, and children. Al-Qaeda does not define Islam, it corrupts it. Osama bin Laden is not a legitimate Muslim cleric; his credentials are falsified. He has no more authority to declare jihad than I do to declare war on Switzerland.

And Americans who embrace the bigoted lie that all Muslims are evil are just playing into the terrorists' hands, making it easier for them to convince their followers that we're a dangerous enemy trying to destroy them. The kind of anti-Muslim hate speech I'm hearing here just gives al-Qaeda what it wants.
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Old July 31 2009, 05:52 PM   #23
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

coolghoul wrote: View Post
darkwing_duck1 wrote: View Post
Misfit Toy wrote: View Post
Doubtful. It's just a product made for people who don't feel the same way you do. There's nothing wrong with that, is there?
There may be, there may NOT be. The timing and the hoopla seem a bit fishy to me. A lot will depend on how it's written I suppose. Will these "good Muslem heroes" be shown cleaning house on Talibans and Al-Qs or will this be a "learning experince" puff job where the "westerners" learn that "everthing they (think) they know about Muslems is wrong"?
Probably a combination of both.

Which is perhaps the right thing.

The most important thing tho' is that comics starring the heroes I like will be read by a larger world audience. I feel a little depressed at seeing all the manga-love (not that there's anything wrong with it) in relation to comics-love at the neighborhood B&N.
Agreed.

I see absolutely nothing wrong with this, and it sounds to me like care is being taken to ensure that it's actually a good story.
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Old July 31 2009, 07:16 PM   #24
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

QuasarVM wrote: View Post
Oh good! Finally the long-awaited team up with JihadBoy and SuicideGirl!

With their I.R.E. (Improvised Roadside Explosives) Organization they are sure to be an asset to the Dynamic Duo and purge all infidel criminals from the holy lands...and beyond!

Complications arise when JihadBoy and SuicideGirl discover that the Dynamic Duo must be beheaded with a dull butter knife -- as they too are infidels.
This is incredibly racist, but hilarious.
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Old July 31 2009, 11:49 PM   #25
darkwing_duck1
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

Misfit Toy wrote: View Post
darkwing_duck1 wrote: View Post
Misfit Toy wrote: View Post
Again, either way, it's made for people who don't think like you do. Why MUST it conform to your philosophy in order to be "right"? Don't you support free enterprise?
I didn't say it shouldn't be published. I said I was unimpressed by it.
You said that there may be something "wrong". You suggested that undue influence was brought to bear in order to get it published. You said it "smacks of PC PR." I'm sure you meant that it should be published.
They have every right to publish it.

I have every right to question their motives for doing so.

No more, no less.
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Old July 31 2009, 11:59 PM   #26
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

These comics (the99) already exist in the middle east and are popular there. So instead of asking rhetorical questions used as excuses to shoot out your political views on muslims, the way "left/right" loonies on political forums do and turn every sane person away, just do some research on them.
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Old August 1 2009, 12:14 AM   #27
darkwing_duck1
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

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darkwing_duck1

Ok see this is what I was talking about. You don't want "your" heroes changed to reflect the world. I think you said create your own heroes.
And I stand by that. Ethnic heroes already exist (John Stewart, Blade, Storm, Forge, Bishop, Luke Cage, Shang Chi, Misty Knight, et al). You don't need to radically alter existing heroes to suit some PC notion of "representation".

So when someone does create their own heroes to fight along side Superman and Batman you say it smacks of PC. Yeah I don't any problem with you way of thinking at all.
I have no problem with Muslem/Arab heroes. Several already exist in the MU. My initial impression of THIS project was that it was a Captain Planet style polemic "puff piece".

So good sir, what exactly would you like to be done for those of us who want to see stories told from a different POV.
I would like to see an honest and unflinching look at the implications of such characters.

One example of a story involving an Arab ethnic hero that I thought was particularly well told was the confrontation between Sabra and Batal (the Syrian Super Soldier) in New Warriors 58-59.

On the flip side, Heaven's Fist (a terrorist team) appeared in the pages of Stormwatch back in the late 90s. Again, an unflinching look at what a combination of superpowers and dangerously radical beleif is capable of.

Stormwatch, by the way, had all MANNER of ethnic characters in it's ranks, INCLUDING Muslems (Damascus, for example).
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Old August 1 2009, 01:08 AM   #28
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

darkwing_duck1 wrote: View Post
Galactus wrote: View Post
darkwing_duck1

Ok see this is what I was talking about. You don't want "your" heroes changed to reflect the world. I think you said create your own heroes.
And I stand by that. Ethnic heroes already exist (John Stewart, Blade, Storm, Forge, Bishop, Luke Cage, Shang Chi, Misty Knight, et al). You don't need to radically alter existing heroes to suit some PC notion of "representation".

So when someone does create their own heroes to fight along side Superman and Batman you say it smacks of PC. Yeah I don't any problem with you way of thinking at all.
I have no problem with Muslem/Arab heroes. Several already exist in the MU. My initial impression of THIS project was that it was a Captain Planet style polemic "puff piece".

So good sir, what exactly would you like to be done for those of us who want to see stories told from a different POV.
I would like to see an honest and unflinching look at the implications of such characters.

One example of a story involving an Arab ethnic hero that I thought was particularly well told was the confrontation between Sabra and Batal (the Syrian Super Soldier) in New Warriors 58-59.

On the flip side, Heaven's Fist (a terrorist team) appeared in the pages of Stormwatch back in the late 90s. Again, an unflinching look at what a combination of superpowers and dangerously radical beleif is capable of.

Stormwatch, by the way, had all MANNER of ethnic characters in it's ranks, INCLUDING Muslems (Damascus, for example).
Muslem??? Is that on purpose?

Why an "unflinching look"? Would you want an unfliching look at a "combination of superpowers and dangerously radical beleif" if said "beleif" was a radical form of Christianity?
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Old August 1 2009, 01:11 AM   #29
Crypto
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

darkwing_duck1 wrote: View Post
Ethnic heroes already exist (John Stewart, Blade, Storm, Forge, Bishop, Luke Cage, Shang Chi, Misty Knight, et al). You don't need to radically alter existing heroes to suit some PC notion of "representation".
So you don't want "white" heroes interacting with other heroes?? WTF are you saying here?
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Old August 1 2009, 01:35 AM   #30
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Re: Superman and Batman to join forces with Islamic superheroes

Misfit Toy wrote: View Post
darkwing_duck1 wrote: View Post
Ethnic heroes already exist (John Stewart, Blade, Storm, Forge, Bishop, Luke Cage, Shang Chi, Misty Knight, et al). You don't need to radically alter existing heroes to suit some PC notion of "representation".
So you don't want "white" heroes interacting with other heroes?? WTF are you saying here?
He's saying, we got enough of those heroes and dont make any white heroes black.

Not sure what that has to do with this topic.
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