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Old September 18 2014, 04:47 PM   #91
tomswift2002
Fleet Captain
 
Re: Why all the 'These are the Voyages...' hate?

I always find that Enterprise's Season 4 was on such a great build up from the other seasons, it seemed to be something very different from Seasons 1-3, but then it decided to end on what I can't even describe as a weak episode. it was worst than weak---it was almost like the weakest episodes from early on were made out of Bristol board, while this episode was made out of tissue paper.
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Old September 18 2014, 07:21 PM   #92
KimMH
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Re: Why all the 'These are the Voyages...' hate?

Melakon wrote: View Post
They should have made Travis to be Malcolm's Section 31 handler. No one would have seen it coming.
That would have been one heckuva twist! Hmmmm, I think I like it.
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Old September 19 2014, 05:53 AM   #93
eyeresist
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Re: Why all the 'These are the Voyages...' hate?

KimMH wrote: View Post
Melakon wrote: View Post
They should have made Travis to be Malcolm's Section 31 handler. No one would have seen it coming.
That would have been one heckuva twist! Hmmmm, I think I like it.
Just imagining Malcolm's crestfallen look as Travis orders him about is delicious
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Old September 19 2014, 09:10 PM   #94
gblews
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Re: Why all the 'These are the Voyages...' hate?

I was thinkin about TaTV as just another regular season episode rather the series finale. If TPTB wanted to keep the Pegusus aspect as well as Riker and Troi, they might have done better using "Divergence" as the anchoring Ent episode.

Riker could then have been shown looking back at Reed keeping major secrets, hidden agendas, and split loyaties (just like Riker in Pegusus), and how he handled it. Since Riker eventually did what Reed did, that is confess to his captain what was really going on, the tie in to Pegusus would have made more sense.

Of course we would still have had to put up with the two Imzadi-wads waddling around, but a better episode might have softened that blow.
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Old September 22 2014, 03:27 PM   #95
tomswift2002
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Re: Why all the 'These are the Voyages...' hate?

I was just rewatching TATV last night and really it did a number of nosedives. One which I found really terrible was just after Trip "dies". You have Trip dying in sickbay, going into the cat-Ray machine (not to mention, but what was up with that stupid eye blink), followed by Trip having a conversation with Riker in the kitchen looking alright, as though he had healed up, without any mention of Trip dying, and then all of a sudden T'Pol is packing his things to send to his family. The Trip/Riker thing would've worked had it been a memory of Trip from someone else, but to just be a random conversation after we see Trip die?

Also Troi's foreshadowing early on in the episode, did we really need that, or would it have worked better had she not mentioned that Trip would not make it home before we saw the final part?

Plus, why did Shran's "friends" reappear? Sorry that was never made clear and Archer's line about how he thought Shran's had said the ship of his "friends" had nowhere near Enterprise's speed, reminded me of how Riker was able to figure out in "Future Imperfect" that he was in a Holodeck, and in "Clues" the crew of the E-D was able to figure out that Data was lying. True Shran's might not have truly known the ship's speed, but that scene seemed to have been put in just to get to Trip's death scene.
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Old September 22 2014, 05:10 PM   #96
Reanok
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Re: Why all the 'These are the Voyages...' hate?

Tatv is one big mess nothing about this lousy story makes any sense at all. Especially the way the Enterprise characters were treated as holograms instead of getting the finale they deserved to have was totally ridiculous. The Enterprise actors hated filming this episode.
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Old September 23 2014, 02:31 AM   #97
eyeresist
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Re: Why all the 'These are the Voyages...' hate?

One thing that really bugs me about TATV is the treatment of Shran. He was this great cool character, very strong, who nevertheless came to trust and occasionally rely on Archer. Unfortunately over the series he became more reliant on Archer to solve his problems, until we reach his nadir with this final episode, when he is basically a pathetic loser. If the whole of TATV really was a historical simulation, I think Shran represents some virulently anti-Andorian propaganda on the part of the Federation.
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Old September 23 2014, 04:58 PM   #98
wulfio
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Re: Why all the 'These are the Voyages...' hate?

tomswift2002 wrote: View Post
I always find that Enterprise's Season 4 was on such a great build up from the other seasons, it seemed to be something very different from Seasons 1-3, but then it decided to end on what I can't even describe as a weak episode. it was worst than weak---it was almost like the weakest episodes from early on were made out of Bristol board, while this episode was made out of tissue paper.
I found S4 to be jarring. The first 3 seasons of the show had a continuity due to them having season arcs, and its own identity. They also focused on what the show was to me, which was experiencing everything for the first time.

The final season to me lacked structure, and was purely fan service. its only "structure" was using multi episode arcs to address popular places and stories in Trek history(Vulcan, Andor, Orion syndicate, Augments, etc.). Yes the first 3 seasons gave a wink to the audience from time to time, but they had their own identity. It's sort of fitting that the finale of Enterprise was equally jarring by making another attempt at fan service by starring Frakes and Sirtis in a popular TNG storyline.

To me, the finale was representative of the entire season, in doing a disservice to the series. That's how I feel about it though.
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Old September 23 2014, 06:18 PM   #99
MacLeod
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Re: Why all the 'These are the Voyages...' hate?

Had thet set the show in say the 2120's or 2130's then perhaps the expectation from the fans might have been different. But we already knew a few scant details from the period 2250's into the early 2161's. i.e The Earth-Romulan War and the Foundation of the Federation.

So it's not unrealestic of the fans to expect plots surrounding the events leading upto these events. You could say it was a disservice to the fans to basically forgot about these events. There are always two sides to the coin.
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Old September 25 2014, 02:52 AM   #100
eyeresist
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Re: Why all the 'These are the Voyages...' hate?

I agree with Wulfio on this. There are some good things in S4, but also some stuff that's pretty poor. It's true that elements from the pre-existing Trek universe were explored in more detail than the "special guest appearances" of S1 and 2, but there are still weaknesses we need to acknowledge: the sillyness of the augments, the weak middle episode of the Vulcan arc, the misjudged tone of the Orion slavegirl ep. Stand-alone ep Daedelus was a misfire. I also think the ep Home has been overrated. For me, the biggest disappointment was the Klingon story (perhaps because it was the S4 idea that grabbed me most, and which I expected most from) - the plotting is clunky and the Klingons act stupidly.

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Old September 29 2014, 02:50 PM   #101
MaineLen
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Re: Why all the 'These are the Voyages...' hate?

I fell it was OK. But it was rushed, and to many story lines that could have been, but were never wrapped up. MC's writing was fantastic, and the show could have gone so many places. And yes, Trip's death was not needed. The books cleared that up, but still...
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Old September 29 2014, 05:52 PM   #102
JeffinOakland
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Re: Why all the 'These are the Voyages...' hate?

Enterprise was a ridiculous 4 year long mixed bag of good and bad. I thoroughly enjoyed large swaths of it. TATV seemed such a wimpy, petulant way to say good bye (Trip dying, the "retrospective"). Almost as if they were say F you to the fans who didn't support their uneven, deeply flawed show. As if the show deserved to be watchd because it carried the ST brand label.
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Old September 30 2014, 11:36 PM   #103
tomswift2002
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Re: Why all the 'These are the Voyages...' hate?

As far as Seasons 1, 2 & 3 go, I think they were better in the books than on the actual show. I read the books before I had ever seen an episode of Enterprise (I had someone tape 6 episodes in Season 2 and 6 episodes in Season 3 on VHS from satellite years ago, since there was only 1 channel on my cable service that carried Enterprise, and it wasn't worth getting the package for just the one channel back then, and really I couldn't believe that any of those 12 episodes had managed to make it past the brainstorming stage, when the books were painting a very different Enterprise), so when I saw Broken Bow on DVD for the first time, I was very disappointed at how the quality of the episode didn't even match up to what I was expecting from the novelization, or even By The Book, Surak's Soul (although What Price Honor I would have to say was as bad as the actual episodes) and the Daedalus/Daedalus' Children duology. In some ways it would've been better had the producers gone in the direction that Michael Jan Friedman postulated about in Starfleet Year One.
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Old October 1 2014, 06:16 AM   #104
allstar77
Lieutenant Commander
 
Re: Why all the 'These are the Voyages...' hate?

Personally, I skipped TATV and skipped straight to Star Trek 2009 and Into Darkness. Enjoyed the little nods to ENT. Much happier this way.
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