Marvel All New, All Different - Ongoing Discussion (Spoilers)

Wait, wait. So you're saying issue #1 isn't the full and complete story?

I'm honestly very surprised by the reactions of people who aren't new to comics.

 

Me, too. No matter how much Marvel protests otherwise, I know this will be reverted before two years are out. They protested that Spider-Ock was the permanent status quo going forward, and it lasted eighteen months. 18 months != forever.

I'm not a Captain America fan of any appreciable stripe, so I'm not reading this, nor was I planning to read this, but it does bother me that Marvel, by saying that Steve Rogers has always been a HYDRA agent, has done something scuzzy to the character. They're saying, boldly, that Captain America, America's patriotic hero and the creation of two Jewish creators (Joe Simon and Jack Kirby) during World War II, has always been a member of a Nazi-analogue organization, that he's really the antithesis of who he always appeared to be.

I'd like to think that Rogers is really just going undercover, like Vinnie Terranova in Wiseguy. Maybe that's the real concept, and this issue (which I haven't read!) was done the way it was in order to get people talking and mask the Wiseguy twist. That's what I'd like to think. We'll see.

 

I can't believe how outraged people are either. It's obviously not real! It's just a fake-out that will last 6-12 issues. It's just a gag to get press. Not a coincidence this came out the day the DC Universe rebooted itself.

The obvious answer is Red Skull telepathy. The other would be Cosmic Cube girl screwed something up when she rewrote his body, possibly at the machinations of Zemo.

 

If it was the Skull, it brings to mind his role in the creation of the Falcon.

 

The outrage isn't because people are worried it's real, I don't think. I think it has more to do with THIS being the thing Marvel put out to the press to try to get hype. That the symbol of everything that's best in America is actually a fascist, deceitful Nazi analogue. In so far as any of this sticks, that'll be the thing that Joe and Jill on the street remember. They aren't comic fans, but they heard it on the news that one time. Which nowadays, might as well make it gospel.


There are a number of ways already built into the premise for it to be head-fake. The Skull, obviously. Or Zemo. Zemo flat out says that he'll use the cosmic cube (Kobik) to rewrite reality once he gets her, to bring about his utopia. Steve as agent of HYDRA fits in perfectly with Zemo's worldview, which was also reviewed earlier in the issue. The new player in the flashback scenes could be Kobik, after some later point where Zemo got his hands on her. Time travel can be fun!

I'm not going to be reading further, the comics market is too crowded to be wasting my money on a story that so viscerally turned me against itself. But that doesn't mean the story won't end up being worth a read down the road. Spencer had better bring his A game, however, because he's written himself into a spot. And how he gets out of it will be the most telling thing. Classic story, or hopeless flop? Or forgettable tripe? Someone will still be reading to find out, I'm sure.

 

https://twitter.com/chrisarrant/status/735557426888347649

 

Still not understanding the anger. Isn't it great drama to put the hero in the (literally) farthest position possible that they comfortably want to be in? Haven't we seen and read a million stories where it starts off with our hero is the bad guy and then, through the course of the story, we find out why it appeared that way but he's still just as noble and heroic as ever? In fact, there are Captain America stories that did this very thing.

For all we know, it's resolved during this arc and isn't even meant to be a full year's worth of stories. And blaming the press and hype over an unfinished story? We can't make up our own minds on this that we have to worry about what's being said outside the pages by a media that knows these characters only from the movies and tv shows?

Even Indiana Jones had to wear a Nazi uniform. If we started the movie at that point, it would be confusing. But when we know the whole story, it's no big deal.

I liked the book well enough. I'm interested to see where it goes, it's obviously not something that really happened to Cap, he's still the living legend, the mystery is just in explaining just what's going on.

 

This 1000X.

 

Oh, I'm fully aware that this is just a temporary gimmick, it just isn't a story direction that I have any interest in.

 

Except the story, and what might come from it, aren't what are being reported. What's being reported is that Marvel has revealed that Captain America is, was, and always has been a Nazi. It has nothing to do with drama, or whether or not it might make for a good story. For most people, that headline is all they'll ever hear about any of this. Most, who aren't comics readers, will shrug it off and never think on it again. But, in that way that you suddenly remember the answer to a Jeopardy clue you vaguely recall hearing once, that's what will be out there. Those people will never read the rest of Spencer's plot, or care to hear anything else.

And Marvel has made sure this was publicized on every major outlet available. I really feel like a lot of the anger has nothing to do with the comic, or what may or may not come from it. But rather from the fact that, in an age when people are more likely to believe something that they randomly saw on the internet one time than something scientists can show tons of evidence for, this is what Marvel put out into the media.

The comic's story is what it is. And since it mostly isn't, yet, it's impossible to judge. For some, the anger comes anyway. Lots of comic book fans have grown cynical, and seem to genuinely believe that the companies that profit from the characters are always seeking to undermine and destroy those same characters. I'm sure there's a fair amount of that out in the world right now. But I really do feel like most of the anger or resentment here isn't about the reveal itself, or the fact that it's obviously a story point and that plenty could change with even the next issue. It's that THIS is what Marvel has put out there. This is where they've gone to generate hype.

Maybe I'm wrong, and most of it just nerd-rage. I'm biased, I think the plot twist is dumb and it kills any interest I had in the book. I've already voted with my wallet, and won't be reading further.

 

another part of the problem, IMO, is we just got Steve back. he lost his powers and was running around the Marvel Universe acting out of character. Avengers Standoff felt like an unnecessary event to give Steve his powers back...but whatever. he was back as Cap. but now Marvel is all, 'ha! fooled you!'

 

So now we don't get upset at the content, but what the headlines report what the marketing says the content is about?

This is a new one to me. Maybe I watch the wrong news stations, too. Since I haven't seen anything about Captain America. It's all just the silly American election circus.

 

Honestly, I was very excited that Standoff gave Steve his powers back. Sam is ok, but I wanted Steve young again (his old self wasn't very interesting) and back as Cap. So, this twist was really painful as a Cap fan even beyond the stupidity of it and my irritation at the endless Marvel "shake ups".

 

Interesting. He deliberately drew badly to get more assignments and it worked. That's the 90s for you, I guess.

Assuming he's telling the truth and not being diplomatic.

 

A real Captain America has stood up!

 

That and the other possibility mentioned up thread sound like logical guesses to how this is going to be explained.

Honestly, I wouldn't be surprised if this was all at least explained in the next issues. It's obviouse this was just a hook to get people's attention, and it clearly did exactly that. I don't really see it as being any different than what serial TV dramas do at the end of almost every episode.

I have just kind of a general Marvel question. Is Jennifer Walters/She-Hulk always green? It seems like most of the other Hulks change back and forth between their Hulk and regular human forms, but whenever I see Jen she seems to be green.

 

While it has fluctuated at times, generally speaking (and for a long time now) she has complete control of her transformations. She's mostly shown in She-Hulk form because, unlike a lot of the other Hulks, there are no disadvantages to being a hulk for her. She doesn't become angry or have major personality problems when transformed, so she prefers to stay She-Hulk. Basically, for her its all benefits, with few drawbacks, to stay in Hulk form 24/7.

Of course there are problem sometimes depending on the writer/storyline, but she's basically the Hulk who loves being a Hulk and doesn't have to deal with the hulk issues a lot of the other ones do.

 

Ok, thanks for the info!

 

It's probably been undone by now, but years ago in John Byrne's She-Hulk graphic novel exposure to radiation locked Jennifer in her She-Hulk form "permanently."

 

Don't read comics. Love the Marvel movies, but that's it.

However, when I read that 9 year olds are feeling heart broken because their hero is HYDRA, and according to the writers this is THE status qua, I say that's a pretty shitty thing to do as a writer. Kids love these comics, and look up to these characters as heroes. And before the adults here are saying these kids should grow up, when we were 9, we were exactly the same. So yeah, in my opinion, pretty much a dick-thing to do. Telling a child that his hero was basicly a NAZI all along. A 9 year old isn't gonna understand this is marketing. Just a cheap trick to sell a few more comics. That kid feels shit right now. That's why I am angry. I could give two f***s about the adult fanboys throwing a temper-tantrum. I care about that little kid.

And that's all I gotta say about that.