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Old January 12 2014, 11:41 AM   #166
Shaka Zulu
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Re: Nasty Characters Masquerading As Good - Willow Rosenberg

AgentCoop wrote: View Post
I'm far less put off by AppleGoblin's language and rude manner than I am by the ridiculousness of the argument itself. Your argument might...might have been worth discussing if you weren't making such a herculean effort to twist everything Willow ever said or did to make it fit in with your theory. You come off sounding like you're vilifying her for the "crime" of being a well-written, three-dimensional character. *GASP!* You mean Willow isn't all just sweetness and light? You mean sometimes she does the wrong thing and even has bad thoughts about other people? Why, it's almost as if she's a...a...a PERSON!
Amazing how he can empathize with Cordelia (a woman that would most likely have blown off his ass in high school) but he'll diss and blast Willow (a girl that he would have been able to get.) I view this whole thing as the Ginger/Mary Ann dichotomy from Gilligan's Island (guys are supposed to love Ginger, but really go for Mary Ann) except that in his case, he loves Ginger/Cordelia and hates Mary Ann/Willow (BTW, there's also the Daphne/Velma dichotomy and the Thalia Menninger/Zelda Gilroy dichotomy.)

In any case, I stand by what I said about Cordelia, and I will say that he didn't prove his case for her against Willow.

Last edited by Shaka Zulu; January 12 2014 at 11:53 AM.
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Old January 12 2014, 01:44 PM   #167
Apple Goblin
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Re: Nasty Characters Masquerading As Good - Willow Rosenberg

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post

Amazing how he can empathize with Cordelia (a woman that would most likely have blown off his ass in high school) but he'll diss and blast Willow (a girl that he would have been able to get.) I view this whole thing as the Ginger/Mary Ann dichotomy from Gilligan's Island (guys are supposed to love Ginger, but really go for Mary Ann) except that in his case, he loves Ginger/Cordelia and hates Mary Ann/Willow (BTW, there's also the Daphne/Velma dichotomy and the Thalia Menninger/Zelda Gilroy dichotomy.)

In any case, I stand by what I said about Cordelia, and I will say that he didn't prove his case for her against Willow.
Wrong again, Shaka Zulu. Do you ever get so tired of being so wrong? And why so indirect? Why reply to me as if I'm not here, as if I'm a mere extra in Buffy The Vampire Slayer?

Cordelia is magnanimous, honest and genuinely helpful, things Willow never is. She may be bitchy but she was real. Think my empathy is misaligned? How about Cordelia empathizing with Buffy, whom she loathes, while Xander and Willow choose the low road and judge her? Not once in Btvs did I ever get the impression that Willow, Xander and Buffy were friends who genuinely trusted and cared for one another.

And way to respond to the points I made about Willow stealing Cordelia's boyfriend yet hypocritically slut-shaming Cordelia out of spite and jealousy. So much easier to talk about Velma and Daphne than concede to Cordelia's superiority as a person.

And who is to say I wouldn't be friends with Cordelia in high school? Probably not, but trust me, Willow's fake nice girl act would have repulsed me even then.
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Old January 12 2014, 01:51 PM   #168
Apple Goblin
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Re: Nasty Characters Masquerading As Good - Willow Rosenberg

USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
Manticore wrote: View Post
Apple Goblin wrote: View Post
You mean twat? That word is not a big deal, love.
It really kind of is.
Context is key.

If we knew that Apple Goblin is the sort of person that just litters his speech with calling *everyone* twats, that would be one thing, because after hearing Gordon Ramsey say it a few dozen times on a cooking show, it does start to lose its meaning and weight.

But here, we don't know him - we only know that he started a thread to call a character that some of us have some degree or another of emotional investment in by that name. A character who also happens to be a woman, and a thread in which he also used other misogynistic terms to describe her.

I'd say that is enough evidence to convict him of being a misogynistic misanthrope, at least in this instance. But I'm not going to even focus on that. Instead, I'm going to wonder what kind of person takes the time to write an analysis of a character THAT long as one of their first few posts to a message board, especially a character that isn't even from the work that the board focuses on! Good grief, man! Say "howdy". Tell us how you were introduced to Trek. Join a thread about whether or not Data needs to eat or something.
Who are you, and why are you filled with so much disdain? Think I'm rude? Look at you!

And yes, Data probably needs to eat.

AgentCoop wrote: View Post
I'm far less put off by AppleGoblin's language and rude manner than I am by the ridiculousness of the argument itself. Your argument might...might have been worth discussing if you weren't making such a herculean effort to twist everything Willow ever said or did to make it fit in with your theory. You come off sounding like you're vilifying her for the "crime" of being a well-written, three-dimensional character. *GASP!* You mean Willow isn't all just sweetness and light? You mean sometimes she does the wrong thing and even has bad thoughts about other people? Why, it's almost as if she's a...a...a PERSON!
I've already stated that I think Willow is a well-written character. She is all the more loathsome for it, because it gives depth to her selfish motives and rotten way of thinking. Look at her horrid, solipsistic world view expressed in 'Grave'...anyone who finds that likable is a sociopath. Same goes for the people who rooted for Carrie White to kill her classmates during prom nights. The fake mousy "I'm an underdog" shit Lady Gaga uses to sell records is more often than not a symptom of a sick, sick mind. For these people, more mental wards, less sympathy is what I'm thinking.

Now go back to Twin Peaks, where you belong.
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Old January 12 2014, 03:58 PM   #169
AgentCoop
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Re: Nasty Characters Masquerading As Good - Willow Rosenberg

^Nah. Think I'll hang here for a bit. Sometimes shooting fish in a barrel is fun. Although if Twin Peaks were real place, I'd happily spend some time there. Seriously, if you want to talk Twin Peaks, start a thread on it and I'll join you. If this is the kind of stuff you read into a fairly straightforward show like Buffy, I'd be fascinated to hear what you get out of David Lynch.

You say you acknowledge that Willow is a well-written character, but you then deliberately ignore nearly everything the writers were trying to do with her. It's one thing if you want to read some subtext into the show (it's certainly there), but you're taking such an "Opposite Day" approach to even Willow's most selfless actions that it's become parody.

Also, you keep using the word "sociopath" and I'm not entirely convinced you know what it means.
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Old January 12 2014, 04:58 PM   #170
USS Triumphant
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Re: Nasty Characters Masquerading As Good - Willow Rosenberg

Apple Goblin wrote: View Post
Who are you, and why are you filled with so much disdain? Think I'm rude? Look at you!
I didn't disdain you.

disdain, v., consider to be unworthy of one's consideration

On the contrary, I offered you what I believe to be good advice - that perhaps you should make yourself known to the board in the context of the board's primary topic before posting further essay length diatribes filled with (seeming?) misogyny. Let us figure out exactly what kind of crazy we're dealing with in a more comfortable context.

And to be clear, that wasn't a dig. We've all got our crazy, I think. Mine is one that I think is probably shared by many of the others who are responding so negatively to you here: I consider good fictional characters to be FRIENDS, or at least, friendly acquaintances, and don't really like people attacking them harshly.

But since you have gone further into calling longer-standing members "sociopaths" (and AgentCoop is correct - you don't seem to have a good handle on what that word means) and trying to tell them to "go back where they belong", and worst of all to me, since you have now decided to attack Lady Gaga, now, sir, NOW you get disdain.

Good day, sir.
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Old January 12 2014, 05:35 PM   #171
AgentCoop
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Re: Nasty Characters Masquerading As Good - Willow Rosenberg

^Yeah, what's with the weird out-of-left-field dig at Lady GaGa? Looks like somebody needs a dose of ArtPop.
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Old January 12 2014, 07:13 PM   #172
MacLeod
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Re: Nasty Characters Masquerading As Good - Willow Rosenberg

Perhaps we should steer back to topic.

the human psyche has various aspects to it both good and bad, and sometimes those can be conflict between what we know we should do and what we actually do. There are times where we should keep quiet but don't. So someone who has more negative tendacies can try to overcome them by trying not to engange in those negative tendacies.

So even if Willow was a bad character masquerading as a good character as the OP thinks, could you not say rather than masquerading as a good person, she was trying to be one?
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Old January 12 2014, 08:01 PM   #173
Neroon
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Re: Nasty Characters Masquerading As Good - Willow Rosenberg

Since there is a resistance to staying on topic and a predilection towards the interpersonal ... thread closed.
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Old January 12 2014, 08:17 PM   #174
Neroon
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Re: Nasty Characters Masquerading As Good - Willow Rosenberg

Apple Goblin wrote: View Post
Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post

Amazing how he can empathize with Cordelia (a woman that would most likely have blown off his ass in high school) but he'll diss and blast Willow (a girl that he would have been able to get.) I view this whole thing as the Ginger/Mary Ann dichotomy from Gilligan's Island (guys are supposed to love Ginger, but really go for Mary Ann) except that in his case, he loves Ginger/Cordelia and hates Mary Ann/Willow (BTW, there's also the Daphne/Velma dichotomy and the Thalia Menninger/Zelda Gilroy dichotomy.)

In any case, I stand by what I said about Cordelia, and I will say that he didn't prove his case for her against Willow.
Wrong again, Shaka Zulu. Do you ever get so tired of being so wrong? And why so indirect? Why reply to me as if I'm not here, as if I'm a mere extra in Buffy The Vampire Slayer?

Cordelia is magnanimous, honest and genuinely helpful, things Willow never is. She may be bitchy but she was real. Think my empathy is misaligned? How about Cordelia empathizing with Buffy, whom she loathes, while Xander and Willow choose the low road and judge her? Not once in Btvs did I ever get the impression that Willow, Xander and Buffy were friends who genuinely trusted and cared for one another.

And way to respond to the points I made about Willow stealing Cordelia's boyfriend yet hypocritically slut-shaming Cordelia out of spite and jealousy. So much easier to talk about Velma and Daphne than concede to Cordelia's superiority as a person.

And who is to say I wouldn't be friends with Cordelia in high school? Probably not, but trust me, Willow's fake nice girl act would have repulsed me even then.
Apple Goblin wrote: View Post
USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
Manticore wrote: View Post

It really kind of is.
Context is key.

If we knew that Apple Goblin is the sort of person that just litters his speech with calling *everyone* twats, that would be one thing, because after hearing Gordon Ramsey say it a few dozen times on a cooking show, it does start to lose its meaning and weight.

But here, we don't know him - we only know that he started a thread to call a character that some of us have some degree or another of emotional investment in by that name. A character who also happens to be a woman, and a thread in which he also used other misogynistic terms to describe her.

I'd say that is enough evidence to convict him of being a misogynistic misanthrope, at least in this instance. But I'm not going to even focus on that. Instead, I'm going to wonder what kind of person takes the time to write an analysis of a character THAT long as one of their first few posts to a message board, especially a character that isn't even from the work that the board focuses on! Good grief, man! Say "howdy". Tell us how you were introduced to Trek. Join a thread about whether or not Data needs to eat or something.
Who are you, and why are you filled with so much disdain? Think I'm rude? Look at you!

And yes, Data probably needs to eat.

AgentCoop wrote: View Post
I'm far less put off by AppleGoblin's language and rude manner than I am by the ridiculousness of the argument itself. Your argument might...might have been worth discussing if you weren't making such a herculean effort to twist everything Willow ever said or did to make it fit in with your theory. You come off sounding like you're vilifying her for the "crime" of being a well-written, three-dimensional character. *GASP!* You mean Willow isn't all just sweetness and light? You mean sometimes she does the wrong thing and even has bad thoughts about other people? Why, it's almost as if she's a...a...a PERSON!
I've already stated that I think Willow is a well-written character. She is all the more loathsome for it, because it gives depth to her selfish motives and rotten way of thinking. Look at her horrid, solipsistic world view expressed in 'Grave'...anyone who finds that likable is a sociopath. Same goes for the people who rooted for Carrie White to kill her classmates during prom nights. The fake mousy "I'm an underdog" shit Lady Gaga uses to sell records is more often than not a symptom of a sick, sick mind. For these people, more mental wards, less sympathy is what I'm thinking.

Now go back to Twin Peaks, where you belong.

Infraction for trolling, comments to PM
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Last edited by Neroon; January 13 2014 at 03:50 PM.
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