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Old June 11 2014, 08:59 AM   #496
Flying Spaghetti Monster
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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier Discussion Thread - SPOILERS

FPAlpha wrote: View Post
Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
Can someone please tell me what the end game was in this film? I started losing my interest around the time it went from being a merely competent political thriller/ chase film to becoming a rather charmless "Avengers 1.5" film.

Okay, here:

So they were going to fly these ridiculous flying aircraft carriers 3000 feet (my model bottle rocket goes higher than that) and lock a bunch of machine guns on ordinary citizens and shoot them all at once in broad daylight? What did they think was going to happen when they pulled this off?

And why did these stupid aircraft carriers have giant see-through bubbles on the bottom with bridges to make it seem more like Cap was playing a video game?

And how does someone jump into a flying helicopter without being shredded?

Marvel needs to grow up!
Or you could accept that these are comicbook movies and it's a rare superhero story that stands up to real world logic or realism.

Rule of Cool is the mantra.
Maybe so.. and I'll go with that.

But no one has answered what the heck was supposed to happen with that last act.

What was the end game? Killing citizens in broad daylight?

What??
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Old June 11 2014, 09:00 AM   #497
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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier Discussion Thread - SPOILERS

Yeah mate, relax. It's just a film!
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Old June 11 2014, 09:17 AM   #498
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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier Discussion Thread - SPOILERS

Reverend wrote: View Post
Yeah mate, relax. It's just a film!
Yes, I know. But it's also one of the most critically acclaimed blockbusters of the year, and, unless someone can clear these things up for me, I will go on saying that this film falls completely apart in the last act.
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Old June 11 2014, 10:38 AM   #499
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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier Discussion Thread - SPOILERS

It's difficult to say what exactly Hydra's plans ultimately were considering the heroes' actions forced them to take counter-action almost from the opening scene, but I'd say Project Insight was basically PRISM combined with a super-drone programme.

In one fell-swoop, Hydra could eliminate all its potential enemies under the guise of anti-terrorism operations.
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Old June 11 2014, 10:48 AM   #500
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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier Discussion Thread - SPOILERS

Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
Reverend wrote: View Post
Yeah mate, relax. It's just a film!
Yes, I know. But it's also one of the most critically acclaimed blockbusters of the year, and, unless someone can clear these things up for me, I will go on saying that this film falls completely apart in the last act.
Than go on saying that. Why should I go out of my way to explain to you why I enjoy a film?
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Old June 11 2014, 11:31 AM   #501
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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier Discussion Thread - SPOILERS

Frodo Lives wrote: View Post
It's difficult to say what exactly Hydra's plans ultimately were considering the heroes' actions forced them to take counter-action almost from the opening scene, but I'd say Project Insight was basically PRISM combined with a super-drone programme.

In one fell-swoop, Hydra could eliminate all its potential enemies under the guise of anti-terrorism operations.
I think the guise was just to get the program developed. I think it's implausible to believe they planned to keep their plans a secret after assassinating the President and everyone else. I think it's more likely that the coup would establish the new paradigm so quickly that the government could not stop it. And once you have carriers that can kill thousands instantaneously and can fly permanently in the sky, it's hard to challenge them after that.

Agents of SHIELD seems to corroborate my theory:
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Old June 11 2014, 12:24 PM   #502
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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier Discussion Thread - SPOILERS

I think that's a valid theory, and given what we know of the comic-book version of Hydra certainly seems likely they'd eventually pull off their masks and laugh maniacally/triumphantly at their victory, letting the world know who was truly in charge.

But I'd postulate that even if Project Insight was successfully launched, Hydra would have continued to operate covertly as SHIELD, taking out whomever they liked, with the full backing of the citizenry and government. Why abandon the guise if it wasn't necessary? After all, as Zola said, it's much easier to have people hand over their freedom rather than try to take it by force. As long as they could portray whomever challenged them as traitors/terrorists they could pretty much get away with anything.

But it was Fury's nosiness and Cap's decision to drag the fight out into the open that forced their hand, meaning they had to take out as many loyal SHIELD agents/installations as possible before the jig was completely up. Wasn't Garrett just a little surprised that they'd finally decided to step out? I could be misremembering that though.

It just seems a little crazy to me that Hydra after hiding so successfully for so long would willingly give up that anonymity if they didn't have to. But in the end we are dealing with a Nazi-descended organisation - crazy's pretty much their mission-statement.

Of course there's definite room for either theory, which is part of what makes the film so great in my opinion, the ability to debate plot-points and character motivations.
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Old June 11 2014, 12:39 PM   #503
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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier Discussion Thread - SPOILERS

If things had gone to plan, the Insight Carriers would have instantly assassinated every person that would have risen against them. And obviously the Hydra agents would have Order 66'd any heroic SHIELD agents. Instant coup.

It's the Tarkin Doctrine. If you have a Death Star that will be blow up any planet that rebels against you, everyone will be too terrified to resist you.

As for jumping into a helicopter, don't they tilt the copter on its side to get the rotors out of the way?
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Old June 11 2014, 01:21 PM   #504
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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier Discussion Thread - SPOILERS

You have to accept the premise that Hydra's psychological assessment was able to do what they claimed, separate out everybody who had in in him to join the rebellion in any capability from sympathizer to suicide bomber.In one made moment everybody left would be like citizens of North Korea and thanking SHIELD for their new found safety with neither terrorist nor the crazy shooting up schools or police officers eating pizza.
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Old June 11 2014, 02:30 PM   #505
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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier Discussion Thread - SPOILERS

Mr Light wrote: View Post
As for jumping into a helicopter, don't they tilt the copter on its side to get the rotors out of the way?
Yes, it tilted 90 degrees until the rotors were literally sideways. It took Fury a few seconds to right the chopper again and get them away from the building, during which they were mostly helping Falcon into it.
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Old June 11 2014, 03:54 PM   #506
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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier Discussion Thread - SPOILERS

FPAlpha wrote: View Post
Flying Spaghetti Monster wrote: View Post
Marvel needs to grow up!
Or you could accept that these are comicbook movies and it's a rare superhero story that stands up to real world logic or realism.

Rule of Cool is the mantra.
There is a point where cool fades into stupid... and then the Hasbro logo appears.

Yeah, HYDRA's plan is pretty stupid in a total comic-booky way, but going by the worldwide grosses, Marvel Studios doesn't "need" to change any part of their MO. OTOH, I agree that Cap2 has been a bit over-praised. Yes, it was nice to see them making gestures toward contemporary issues, which is more than most comic book movies go, but gestures is ultimately all they were.
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Old June 14 2014, 10:56 PM   #507
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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier Discussion Thread - SPOILERS

I agree with you almost fully. I will say that I ahd a great time watching the first Transformer film and the second G.I. Joe film.. both are absurd, but they embrace their absurd in an old-fashion kind of way.

In the second act of Winter Soldier, Nick Fury tells Cap that Shied has been compromised. I've found that in movies, the more awesome a spy agency is, and the more tools and bets people it has, the more likely it will be that this organization will be compromised. Upon anyone's initiation in SHIELD, Fury should tell them that the signal that the organization is compromised is to rub behind your own ear.. some gesture, rather than trying to text it
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Old June 14 2014, 11:20 PM   #508
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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier Discussion Thread - SPOILERS

Yeah. They figured that with the first 700,000+ fatalities including everyone from President Ellis and Tony Stark on down to "random" people in the streets, parks, and so on pre-identified as potential "anti-HYDRA" recruits via PRISM-style methods, the mask was going to come off anyway. Also, they had seventy-plus years to make sure they had people in every SHIELD base, vessel(air, sea or space) placed well enough to ensure the rest of the planet would have to sit still for the HYDRA "pacification" program.

(No doubt, George Lucas was also on HYDRA's Insight Target List just for writing Revenge of the Sith. Because he was able to foresee the possibility of an "Order 66" scenario at all.)
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Old June 15 2014, 03:26 AM   #509
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Re: Captain America: The Winter Soldier Discussion Thread - SPOILERS

DEWLine wrote: View Post
(No doubt, George Lucas was also on HYDRA's Insight Target List just for writing Revenge of the Sith. Because he was able to foresee the possibility of an "Order 66" scenario at all.)
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