Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Trek

Re: Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Tre

Believe it or not, writers are actually human and sometimes misspeak or make mistakes. (Hell, this is Michael A. Martin, the same writer who couldn't decide if T'Pau's title as leader of Vulcan was "First Minister" or "Administrator.") That interview was given six months ago, and we have no idea what direction the writing of the actual novel went in. We will find out definitively when Fallen Gods is published, and not before.

1. Apropos of nothing, but: Do you really have to bold huge blocks of text? It makes it kind of painful to read.

2. What makes you think the Andorian government has major military and technological secrets? I mean, hell, the State of Texas is pretty damn important, but I think it's safe to say that if Texas were to secede and ally with China, the U.S. federal government would make damn sure any and all classified technologies were removed before the Chinese could get their hands on it.

3. Seriously, learn to use the quote function. It's not that hard.

The Andorian species is expected to go extinct within a few hundred years because their population has been dropping, do recall.

Do recall as well that Paths of Disharmony made it clear that Andor's secession was approved by a plurality, not a true majority. That tells us that at least 40% of Andorians did not favor secession--hardly the numbers needed to provide the Pact with major public support.

What, their ice powers?

The Federation is a sovereign state, as well. It has no obligation to allow foreign weapons systems or military ships to enter its space, no matter their destination.

There is no evidence that the Pact has the teeth to force its will upon the Federation. The UFP has been knocked down from being a superpower, but it is still a great power, and all of the other Pact states save the Tholians lost huge numbers of their ships to the Borg in the Azure Nebula, too. Nobody has the teeth to force their way through anyone else's sovereign territory these days.

AFTER the Tholians provided them with data on the Taurus meta-genome that might save them from extinction. AFTER the moderate, peace-preferring new Praetor took power on Romulus. AFTER the Gorn long ago proved they're not hostile to the Federation.

Joining the Typhon Pact is not prima faci evidence of an intent to launch a major war.

ETA:

In other words: "You're enjoying it wrong."

Weren't you the one just saying a few minutes ago that the Andorians don't have a group mind?

 

Re: Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Tre

Sci

As said, as per M A Martin's interview, it's highly probable that andor will join the typhon pact.
Good luck expecting the improbable opposite.



About the USA-federation analogy.
A more accurate (but still flawed) analogy would be NOT with Texas seceding to China, but with California - one of the american powerhouses - seceding to China.
Andor, an interstellar empire (not merely a planet+smallish colonies), was one of the 4 founding members of the federation, out of hundreds; its importance cannot be understated.

The federal USA government would come in and try to remove the classified technologies.
You think the federation will de facto invade Andor and do the same? Or that it can do this? Again, highly improbable.

Even if USA manages to remove the classified technologies, they can't remove the industrial basis and know-how of the californians.
Similary, the federation can't remove the industrial base, knowledge, courage and creativity of the andorians (what made them successful, valuable members of the federation) - and these are their abilities, not ice powers.



About the typhon pact.
In ZSG, it's established that the federation is in economical/numerical inferiority to the typhon pact (to the point that, with no slip-stream, it would be overrun in less than a year); that the pact has other huge strategic advantages (a cloak that can defeat all federation countermeasures until it's too late).
The pact most definitely has the teeth to impose its view on things.



About the andorians.
Do you actually expect the andorians to number less than a billion?

The andorians voted to secede by a smallish majority. Now they vote to join the typhon pact by - let's assume - a smallish majority.
That means that the majority of the andorian people "proved they have little problem with the pact's aggressivity and amorality; proved they have little loyalty toward the federation; etc."
The motives and values of billions of people are necessarily different - with no group mind; but, as it turns out, whatever the reasons, the values of the majority of andorians are compatible with lack of loyalty, with the amorality of the typhon pact.

Your objection is correctly addressed to Therin and JD; they came with such an argument.

My comments regard the content of the books.
About enjoyment - I only stated that JD enjoys such crapsack world stories, with no further comment.


PS - I more rarely use 'quote' because it breaks up the post - not desirable in my view (APROPOS THIS - you should cut down on the number of quotes in your posts and be more concise).
I bold the conclusions, etc in my posts. A desirable practice, in my view (DITTO).

 

Re: Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Tre

I mean, neither comparison is all that great, because both Texas and California have really large populations, while the Andorian population is small and getting smaller. I was thinking of Texas specifically because of the Johnson Space Center, as an example of U.S. technology that I'm sure the federal government would make sure doesn't get transferred out of U.S. control.

Well, we don't know how many worlds were under the Andorian banner when it joined, or was in, the Federation. Yeah, its name is "the Andorian Empire," but that doesn't mean it's actually an empire in any but the most nominal of terms -- remember, the novels established that Andor had been united under a constitutional monarchy in the 19th Century, and it's just as possible that it's called an "Empire" because it unified Andor, not because of there being any extra-Andorian worlds under its control.

"Come in?" It doesn't need to; all it need do is order its agencies to destroy or remove whatever classified technologies they have access to as part of the process of withdrawing from Texas (or where-ever). "You are hereby ordered to destroy all classified technologies before leaving Random Air Force Base and withdrawing from the Republic of Texas and into United States borders."

No, I think the Starfleet officers stationed at Starfleet installations in Andorian space will remove or destroy classified technologies before relinquishing those installations to the Andorian government. If, say, Starbase 3 is in orbit of Andor, for instance, then I expect its computer core to be removed or wiped clean, and its classified technologies either destroyed or removed to Starfleet ships on their way out the door.

Remember: Starfleet is already there. It has to leave first. There's no reason they can't just destroy whatever classified technologies they have before withdrawing beyond Andorian space.

True. But it could destroy installations that are U.S. federal property. And there's no guarantee that the people with major know-how would feel loyal to the new Independent Republic of Texas or California (Texifornia?). Who knows how many of those people would decide to stay with the U.S.?

We know from Paths of Disharmony that Andor's secession was only barely approved. Huge numbers of Andorians with vital skills and information may well decide their loyalties lie with the Federation before Andor.

No, it does not. This is the exact quote, from page 30 of Zero Sum Game:

Nowhere does it say or imply that the Federation will be "overrun." The Federation is competing for power, not for survival.

Maybe. We have no idea what's going on with the type of cloak the Romulans used at the beginning of Zero Sum Game.

I don't think it's been established what the Andorian population is -- only that it's relatively small and growing smaller, and extinction is expected within a few centuries.

No, it means they proved they were angry at the Federation because they (wrongly) perceived it as deliberately withholding information that could save their species from extinction, and perceived the Typhon Pact as having provided that information. To their minds, the Federation was disloyal to Andor.

That doesn't mean that even that smallish majority would consent to a preemptive Typhon Pact attack on the core Federation worlds.

It makes it hard to reference what sections of other posters' comments you are replying to.

That just makes it physically unpleasant to read.

 

Re: Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Tre

I think we should all agree to be fundamentally wrong in our viewpoints, and leave it at that.

 

Re: Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Tre

Sci

The andorians' numbers.
The andorian empire was one of the major powers in the local space before joining the federation.
What does this tell about its population - When one considers that most one-planet species (with little influence/power) encountered numbered in the billions?
That, very probably, the andorians numbered in the billions, too.

The andorians' condition (them dying out) was little known until recently. If the andorian population plummeted to mere millions, this would not be the case.



Starfleet presence on Andor.
At the end of PoD, Andor closed its borders. As a result, neither starfleet nor the federation leadership knew anything about the andorian referendum - a fact every single andorian knew about.

If starfleet/the federation could not even find out such a widely known fact, the starfleet bases on andor are under complete andorian control.

You think these bases will enforce starfleet taking technology from andorians and destroying industrial installations?
Good luck with this.



Andorian morals.
Leaving the federation can be hand waved away by the andorians being angry and not bothering to see that the tholians gave them a cure to hurt the federation, not help them, etc.

Joining the typhon pact, which proved to be both highly agressive toward the federation and amoral - that can't be hand-waved away.
It means the majority of andorians do not have problems with these attributes; with becoming cold war (and, possibly, in the future, hot war) enemies of the federation, with the pact's acts - such as attempted genocide, anti-federation terrorism, etc.



Typhon pact strength.
With no slip-stream advantage "the Federation will become a second-rate power in less than a year". Meaning the federation is in a huge economical/military/etc disadvantage and only the slip-stream keeps it from becoming a second-rate power, at the mercy of the typhon pact.
No wonder starfleet doesn't want to contemplate what the typhon pact will do to the federation after that. It won't be pleasant.



And about the typhon pact cloak:
"“We didn’t think the Romulans had this kind of cloak yet.” Nechayev pointed out an isolated section of the graph. “Judging from these readings, I’d say the Romulans have put phasing cloaks into active service.”
Akaar frowned. “If that’s true, they could be roaming at will throughout Federation space.”"

This is a HUGE strategical advantage for the pact.

 

Re: Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Tre

Not to mention having Lt. Hawk apparently killed by Gorn despite it being mentioned in several novels included the previous Titan book that the Borg did it just to give Keru a reason not to like Gorn (which was another way in which Seize the Fire rehashed Synthesis).

 

Re: Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Tre

The difference between Star Trek's Typhon Pact era and BSG, is that although the Federation's going through some rough times, our heroes (with the possible exception of Bashir), are still good people. BSG is populated by amoral douchbags.

 

Re: Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Tre

The Voyager regulars still seem pretty bland, but a lot better then most of the tv series eps. Kim & Paris seemed to be stewing over some old storyline that sounded really terrible.


I would strongly recommend going back and read the last couple of novels to bring yourself up to date. I think once you read the background of the Kim-Paris issue, it will make quite a bit of sense. Granted, while you probably already know what it is, I won't say/explain it here. But given that you only have a couple of books, I would suggest going back and getting caught up.. Its worth it.

 

Re: Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Tre

Wasn't Hawk killed by the Borg in First Contact?

Mike

 

Re: Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Tre

Maybe, maybe not. We don't know. Their numbers have never been established.

We do know, again, that their population is relatively small and getting smaller. That's all we know.

Actually, it's been widely known for generations. It just wasn't openly confirmed to the rest of the Federation.

That is not a necessary conclusion. It's just as probable that their comm systems were jammed, without the Andorian government having made any move to seize them from Starfleet.

Now you're trying to draw conclusions about an entire species' basic morality on the basis of a single hypothetical political decision with which you disagree.

This is not sound logic.

Right. "Second-rate power." Not "overrun."

No, it means that the Federation will not be able to maintain its advantage and will find itself co-equal with the Typhon Pact states, all of whom are by themselves second-rate powers.

There you go again, trying to push "second-rate power" into "at the mercy." Being a "second-rate power" doesn't mean you've been overrun or you're at anyone's mercy. Russia is a second-rate power; it isn't at anyone's mercy.

This is about the Federation feeling threatened by the idea of the Pact worlds being able to intermittently project force into its territory in the same manner that the Federation is itself capable of doing to the Pact members. This is a legitimate security threat, but it is not an existential threat.

Not all threats to national security are existential.

"If that's true... could be..."

You can fearmonger this all you want, but the fact of the matter is that this thread hasn't been followed up on, and we do not know if that speculation about a Romulan phase cloak was ever actually confirmed. For all we know, the Romulans had just upgraded to Windows Cloaking Systems 5.0, and the Federation installed its Anti-Cloaking Scanner 5.0 two months later.

We don't know. There is no data, only speculation.

... whaaat? Wow, that's a huge mistake, then. Hawk was killed by the Borg -- okay, technically by Worf after he was assimilated, but, really, it was by the Borg -- in the film Star Trek: First Contact. Hell, that was literally all we knew about Hawk before Martin and Mangels wrote Section 31: Rogue all about him.

 

Re: Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Tre

Blejhbgfdjnvggnfjh

The andorian birth problem story thread is the worst thing in modern treklit.

 

Re: Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Tre

To me it looks like he has moved from ignoring facts about STO when writing the tie-in to ignoring or mis-remembering facts from the series/films when writing the tie-ins

And at least this new ignoring or mis-remembering is nowhere near as bad as its just one thing, not several he could have avoided IF HE HAD JUST CHECKED THE FRIKKIN GAME SITE

 

Re: Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Tre

Meh. It's possible that's not the case there; when writing novelizations, it's common for the storyline to be changed while the novel is being written, with the novelist either not being given enough time to change the book or not being told at all. I'm not saying that's what happened with The Needs of the Many, but I wouldn't want to just assume he was "ignoring facts" given that that sort of thing does happen.

 

Re: Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Tre

The novel was released very shortly after the game debuted, which means it must have been written at least several months before the game debuted. There would have been no game site to check, at least not a publicly accessible one. Of course he could've consulted with the game's developers, but they themselves may still have been refining their ideas as they went, and added or changed some things after it was too late to revise the novel manuscript.

 

Re: Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Tre

Well it wouldn't be too major if it was for the whole all out awr with Species 8472 that the book said was happening since the late 2380s when in game they don't show up in force until the Borg star invading for endgame and mostly just to kill the Borg in 2409 when the game takes place.

Plus the whole MACOs still being around since they only showed up in Enterprise and haven't been seen since, that makes me think he's more suited for Enterprise era books than later era stuff.

 

Re: Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Tre

And does not the possibility exist that that particular plot development in STO is exactly what Christopher describes -- a change made after Martin had written or while he was writing the novel, too late to change the manuscript to match?

 

Re: Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Tre

Really, in the history of tie-in novels timed to coincide with the debut of something new, it's exceptional when there aren't major inconsistencies. Heck, even Star Trek tie-in novels that came along months or a year after their respective shows debuted tend to have continuity issues. The first original TNG novel Ghost Ship was based solely on the original series bible and the pilot script and portrayed the characters in ways that seem bizarre today, like having "Bill" Riker be prejudiced against Data. The first several Voyager novels reflected the producers' original assumption that the EMH would quickly adopt the name "Doc Zimmerman." If anything, the first original DS9 novel The Siege is remarkable for how well it fit with the series continuity at the time, though a couple of things about it are hard to reconcile with later seasons.

 

Re: Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Tre

Most of what I saw leading up to launch including the open Beta points to no since they hiped the Klingons as the big bad of the game. Not to mention that if book was considerable behind on the plot it would have probably been closer to the perpetual version of the game with a considerably different plot.

Plus what they were using was pretty faithful to the plot for the most except the "Long War" stuff.

 

Re: Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Tre

Completey ignoring the game itself (which I have no interest in) I very much enjoyed "The Needs of the Many" as a fun restrospecive from an alternate (with respect to Destiny etc) future.

Besides, didn't the book talk extensively about time tampering and alternate histories? Maybe to the characters of "The Needs of the Many", the idea of a later Undine war is no more real than Janeway's death and the Borg invasion.

 

Re: Has the Typhon Pact Books Became Yuuhzan Vong Invasion of Star Tre

I don't know if a single chapter's worth counts as "extensively."