I think Voyager's engineering was my favorite out of all of them, it felt much more like a practical workspace with all the consoles along the sides for people to actually do stuff at, the open design of the core area, and the two-level set. I also love the core itself - maybe it doesn't make quite as much sense as the TNG design, but the it definitely conveys that there's some kind of intense energy swirling around in there, and the way it could both vary the intensity of the glow and the swirls, including a 'dead' state, made it much more effective at conveying the 'mood' of what was happening.
You had me until you went down the "Macks Inability" yarn. David is arguably the most prominent catalyst for making the star trek extended universe a success (along with Peter David and John Vornholt).. So i gotta say any negative context against them does show your narrow mindedness. You're free to disagree with the Destiny story arc but you can by no means consider it a superior story arc to the one portrayed in voyager... (or any of voyagers story lines for that matter).. Just cant do it matey..Its nature vs nurture... and David's very well nurtured..
Good point about the warp core' effect used in voyager! I never really thought about it to be honest. But i gotta say the layout of engineering on voyager while it may be practical... it was just BLAND and not memorable. TNG had the center console where we've seen geordi, sonya gomez and even picard and riker working over it. It adds to the decor. .. Same with Geordi's office and the small cutaway area (with the console that faced the warp core.. and also where Geordi constructed the ship he gave to captain zimbata.) (TNG had a split level engineering as well but to your point, the second level was rarely used and not remembered for anything other than worf flinging a rogue klingon to his doom. ) Between the lighting and the contiguous non-descript layout of Voyager engineering, i just cant say I felt "at home" there. It was functional...served its purpose.. but thats about it. Same with Janeways ready room, the conference rooms and the mess hall.. I think a lot of the sets were recycled from the Defiant in fact..
The TMP-like energy flux inside the core seemed nice, but it kinda felt like a step back into the days before TNG. In the end, that's kinda funny from an in-universe standpoint, because Voyager's cutting edge technology was supposed to be more advanced than the older Galaxy class. Caretaker is set 7 years after Farpoint (2364 vs. 2371), which means the Intrepid class was at best a twinkle in some engineer's eyes when the 1701-D went on her first mission.
My point EXACTLY my friend. I dig the warp core effect but overall voyager (while meant to be a more streamlined vessel) fails in its impression of advanced star ship design. -The neuro circuitry, in example, while a neat idea, still didnt have the same cool factor as watching data or o'brien playing around with 30 isolinear rods. -The press and flip tactical console chakotay used looked like the cheap center console in my nissan. The swivel one Riker used was WAY more impressive - No Stellar Cartography lab.. (vis a vis, Star Trek Generations which I believe came out long before Voyager started) .. Not having one on a space exploration vessel is asinine...."You left spacedock without a tractor beam?!?!"... you know they were going "Doh" when they got flung into the delta quadrant - Kes's hydroponics bay. Think back to when keiko o'brien was running the arboreatum back on the enterprise.. it was MAJESTIC.. Kes' bay looked like a 9th grade home-ec classroom (Stuff like the newer transporter effect and the concept of the doctor however is really cool. I do wish they went into more detail of the doctors sentience tho.. I always felt it was disrespectful to the concept of Data by making the AI doctor seem to just "wake up sentient" as opposed to the actual development and life experiences that Data had to go through to get to that point..) Like I mentioned in another post, voyager was plagued from jumpstreet and it was compounded by the persistant corner cutting.
On my current rewatch I've not long seen a gel pack for the first time and I was nearly in hysterics. It's just a plastic bag with a graphics card strapped to it. I realise that even today someone who recognises that are not that common place, but for those that do it was a bit of jarring moment. But with regards to Voyager's design/role. The fact the Badlands mission was only expected to be three weeks I felt said a lot about what the Class was intended for. No Enterprise like 5 year/ongoing missions. This was a Go-out-do-the-mission-come-home type of ship. Which makes the 75 year journey that much more problematic. Not stripped down to the point of the Defiant, but it was no cruise ship like the Ent-D. But I'm massively speculating here.
Comparing the Galaxy class to the Intrepid class in terms of things like the Arboretum or even Stellar Cartography is just silly; they had completely different mission profiles. At that point, why not ask why a runabout doesn't have either one of those?
You are missing the point... I am arguing that Stellar Cartography should be as common place on a ship of exploration as are the holodecks and tractor beam. My other point is that they BUILT the hydroponics bay ad hoc.. The writers however didnt see the need to make it as glamorous as the arboretum for some odd reason, which I feel is contrary to the fact that for all intents and purposes, this is their HOME.. and needs to be made more habitable for the long term. You cant tell me with a straight face that a holo reproduction of a french whores bar adds more value than an arboretum
No one needs an arboretum on a three week mission. Heck I could stay inside for 3 months and probably not even notice a lack of plants.
LOL... as funny as this is... i do have to point out the obvious to you and the guy before.. Voyager was hardly designed exclusively for a three week mission.
If you feel this way about Voyager...can I ask why you are constantly ONLY posting on the Voyager forum?
I happen to be watching Voyager at the moment. Is it a problem posting things about it in the Voyager forum?? Also, the rules say i need to post like 50 messages before I am considered a full member or something. I had to pay a dollar to get my account approved /validated. Besides...There seem to be some good Star Trek geeks here! I just want to participate.
Clearly Stellar Cartography on the scale that a Galaxy class vessel possesses it is not considered a priority for an Intrepid class ship, which has much less volume and is not designed for the same types of missions. Presumably if and when Starfleet feels that an Intrepid class ship should be sent on such a mission they outfit it accordingly. I imagine an Arboretum is considered a "luxury" by Starfleet, and while it would be included on a Galaxy class ship which is essentially intended to be all things to all missions, it wouldn't be included on an Intrepid class vessel where it would be little more than a curiosity. Given that holodecks have proven that they're not just tools for entertainment but can also prove useful to missions in ways that can't necessarily be anticipated, and they don't take up a whole lot of internal volume, I don't see why they wouldn't be included. Especially since they could likely fake both an arboretum and Stellar Cartography to a limited extent if needed. If you're going to argue that "X ship should include Y", you should really include -why- you feel that way. BTW, why are you blaming the writers for not making hydroponics a more exciting set? How was it in any way their decision? I can and will tell you with a straight face (ironic considering I'm gay), that a holodeck adds more value than an arboretum. I believe this has been brought up before, but I and I believe other posters would appreciate it if you included quoted text -before- your new material, to increase readability and as a courtesy. Thank you.
I knew someone might say that! It just isnt the same though. Besides I dont think the guys are wasting holodeck rations on a pretty garden..
...So, you've stood in a holodeck? Ironic that you bring up rations...if the crew's rationing in any case, why create an arboretum when they could use the space for more essential needs?
My argument is.. that kind of judgement shouldnt be used regarding a "resource" like SC, tractor beam, holodecks or cargo bays on a vessel clearly classified as an exploration craft... which is like 80% of starfleet vessels. This wouldnt be appropriate for say the defiant (or that runabout wisecrack another poster mentioned) Per Memory Alpha: "The Intrepid-class was designed for long-term exploration missions." So I was trying to make a point that since Voyager was trapped on a long term exploration mission, it would be practical to have an Arboretum for the sake of growing food, having a picnic and in general making the ship feel less utilitarian and more like a long term home. Since Kes was allowed to make a hydroponics bay to meet some of those needs, it seems foolish for the writers not to expand it into a fully functional arboretum No argument re the holodecks. Its established they are critical. These comments about "not needed for a ship of this class" and "limited space" are weak excuses. This is a fiction. Space and practicality is limited only by the writers imaginations I very much thought I was doing so on various posts. Feel free to point out one that might be in error. Perhaps "design and logistics" team is more appropriate? My comment was more meant to point out that the crew.. (oh hell.. the damned writers again)... seem to have Chatau De Paris running 24/7 as their only means of recreation. And I think i mentioned earlier that since the design team found the hydro pon bay added value for a lost in space ship, the arboretum is a more reasonable decision Apologies to all! I really wasnt paying attention. Im new here so I'll hope you'll forgive the oversight.. Will make sure to avoid this in the future..
I'm going to have to take issue with that statement. It doesn't agree with my understanding of the Intrepid class's mission profile, and MA doesn't source the statement. In short, I find it dubious. In fact, the article itself is tagged for possible accuracy issues. If a source within the show can be located I'll be happy to reconsider. As for tractor beams and cargo bays, they seem to be de facto on Starfleet vessels beyond the size of, say, a runabout. And heck, runabouts have tractor beams. I can see it being the case that SC...at least on the scale the Galaxy Class has it...is too resource-intensive and too off-mission to merit inclusion on an average Intrepid class ship. In-universe: The crew apparently never felt an arboretum was necessary, as evidenced by the fact that they apparently never built one. Since we're not in their shoes, I don't think we're in a position to question their decision. Out-of-universe: See below. Also, you seem to be mixing in-universe and behind-the-scenes in ways which are only designed to support your points. "The writers decided not to expand it into an arboretum", for instance- I see three possible interpretations- 1) The crew decided not to make an arboretum. Well, perhaps they had a reason for it. We don't know as it was never discussed during the show. 2) The writers decided not to expand it. Perhaps they did but were overruled. 3) TPTB decided not to build an arboretum set. See below regarding money and available space and dramatic considerations, i.e. don't build a set if you don't have a good dramatic reason for one. I'd appreciate it if you could be more clear as to the target of your criticism in future posts. In any event, I've seen you say that Voyager should have had a Stellar Cartography department on the scale of a Galaxy class ship. I haven't seen you explain why beyond what you've provided above, which I've already addressed. I don't think they had any program running 24/7 until Fair Haven, which was...an issue in and of itself. As for the particular program you mention, it doesn't even appear in every season, though I'll admit an argument can be made that it was replaced with programs of perhaps similarly dubious virtue. But the thing is...with the information we have on screen, the crew -does- seem happy with what they have available to them. It's fine to say that if you'd been on the ship you would have wanted other things to do, but it appears that the people who were there were happy with what they had. Besides, the holodeck can be used to create an infinitude of different environments; it's highly unlikely we saw all of the ways in which various members of the crew utilized it. Since we never saw the Voyager crew discuss the relative benefits of hydroponics versus an arboretum, we can't assume they never discussed it. As for behind-the-scenes, sets take up space and cost money and need to be justified. The hydroponics bay itself was a stretch logistically (did we ever see anything particular exciting occur there?); an arboretum would have been even moreso. Thanks!
The holodeck was more than a fantasy playground. It was seen used in training exercises and tactical drills.