Fantastic Four inspiration - Angry Red Planet?

Discussion in 'Science Fiction & Fantasy' started by A beaker full of death, Oct 2, 2012.

  1. A beaker full of death

    A beaker full of death Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Backing up to 1961. Not the modern FF where the Thing calls people "dude", Invisible "Woman" Sue Storm is a sexpot/scientist, and Reed is some kind of wunderkind nerd. No, the original FF. Reed Richards, pipe-smoking paternal scientist, his old college roommate Ben Grimm, who hails directly from the lower East side - both of them WWII veterans (which puts them over 35 when the action starts), Reed's much younger shy girlfriend, and her hotheaded kid brother, who snuck onto the air force base because conditions were just perfect that night to launch their rocketship. Yeah, you can argue the logic all you want, but that's not the point.
    The point is... this seems to fit right in with 1950s sci fi movies, especially Angry Red Planet, which I happened to catch last night (substitute Brooklyn for the lower East side and a redhead for the blonde and you've pretty much got it nailed).
    Admittedly, and ironically, the girl on that crew did happen to be a scientist, though you'd never know it from the way she acted.

    When this comparison occurred to me, it also occurred to me how much of the original characterization of the FF has been lost.

    Any thoughts?
     
  2. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk A Spock and a smile Premium Member

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    Well the FF are basic stock characters, so its not unusual to see some or all of them in other places. Though if you read the first issue the characterizations we know so well hadn't quite firmed up. Ben especially isn't quite the idol of millions we've come to know. There's no trace of his classic speech pattern and his favorite word seems to be "bah!" Sue doesn't come off as shy and Johnny seems more impulsive that hot headed. Ben's more of a hot head anyway. (Anger control ain't his forte.)

    I don't see why Ben wouldn't use the word "dude". He's not exactly the type to avoid slang. As for Reed being a nerd, yeah he is one. Though, back in the early 60 Ben might have called him an "egghead". Same thing, really.
     
  3. A beaker full of death

    A beaker full of death Vice Admiral Admiral

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    ^ "Dude" just isn't a New York word - even today. Pal, buddy, bub, even sparky -- not to mention a whole lot of, well, unmentionable terms. But not "dude."
     
  4. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk A Spock and a smile Premium Member

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    I'm sure Ben gets out of NYC every once in a while and has adopted slang from all over the Galaxy. I've been known to utter "Oy vey" and "Oi!" Trust me, I'm not Jewish nor have I ever been to England.
     
  5. Mr. Adventure

    Mr. Adventure Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Hmmm, so is FF now written by a guy who grew up in the 80's?
     
  6. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk A Spock and a smile Premium Member

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    You sure of that?

    :p
     
  7. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    The main inspiration for the FF was Jack Kirby's earlier series Challengers of the Unknown for DC. Both feature teams of four heroes whose abilities reflect the four classical elements, but in the former case they were non-powered men with different specialties (a miner, a pilot, a firefighter, and a diver, or something like that) while in the latter they were given superpowers reflecting the elements (changeable Reed is water, invisible Sue is air, and the other two are obvious).
     
  8. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk A Spock and a smile Premium Member

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    The Thing isn't supposed to be made of rock. Originally his skin was supposed to be rough and reptilian. The "rock" is a misinterpretation of what Kirby drew. The Challs were Ace ( a pilot), Red ( a daredevil), Rocky ( a boxer ) and Prof (a marine scientist). Not quite the four elements.
     
  9. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    ^I never said he was literally made of rock, any more than I said Reed was literally made of water. It's symbolism. You've really never heard this before? The parallels between CotU and FF, and the shared elemental inspiration, are well-known to comics experts. See here for example:

    http://kirbymuseum.org/blogs/dynamics/2011/03/14/ff-1-synopsis/
     
  10. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk A Spock and a smile Premium Member

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    Of course I've heard of it before. I also heard its not what Lee and Kirby had in mind when creating the FF. The parallels between the FF and the Challs are common knowledge. Kirby played with similar archetypes when creating strips like the Newsboy Legion. Big Words could be a young Reed Richards. Scrapper a young Ben Grimm. Gabby a younger Johnny.

    I don't see any elemental inspiration in the Challs. They were just action hero types: Pilot, Diver, Athlete and Daredevil. The elemental inspiration in the FF is just coincidence.
     
  11. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    Whatever. The main point is that the Challengers were an inspiration for the FF. You don't have a dispute with that, so it's not worth the effort to quibble over the elemental influence.
     
  12. Thestral

    Thestral Vice Admiral Admiral

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    (ETA: Allow me to quibble! :lol:)

    I'm sorry, I haven't read Challengers of the Unknown or really know anything about them, but your list of their names and "professions" seems to pretty easily map to the four elements.

    Ace ( a pilot) = air (he flies for a living)

    Red ( a daredevil) = fire (his name, daredevils tend to be "fiery")

    Rocky ( a boxer ) = earth (his name, boxers are "rooted")

    Prof (a marine scientist) = water (he studies life in the water and you mentioned he's a diver)
     
  13. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk A Spock and a smile Premium Member

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    A daredevil equaling fire is a bit of a stretch. The "daredevilish" thing Red is noted for is mountain climbing. Rocky was no doubt named for Rocky Graziano.
     
  14. stj

    stj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Reed's elasticity seems more like an influence from Plastic Man than an archetype of water. The Human Torch seems more influenced by the android Human Torch who partnered sometimes with the original Submariner. There had been an Invisible Girl in the movies. The only original I think was the Thing, but he didn't look like rock at first.

    Also, the whole issue is complicated by the clear alignment of personality traits with powers in the case of Susan and Johnny. Then there's possibly a kind of irony in the misalignment in the others. Reed's seeming weakness as an intellectual=fantastic ability to metamorphose? While Ben's seeming strength=something more monstrous?
     
  15. Christopher

    Christopher Writer Admiral

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    You're thinking way too literally about something that's explicitly metaphorical. Fire equals intensity, energy, danger. Not to mention "devil" suggesting a hellish association, fire and brimstone.
     
  16. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk A Spock and a smile Premium Member

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    And I think people are looking for metaphors where none exist or were intended. Folks are barking up the wrong tree in my opinion. The personalities of the FF are more important than the powers. The smart guy, the tough guy, the kid and the girl are the archetypes being presented. Ones that Kirby especially likes to play with. Their powers almost seem drawn out of a hat. There only because its a superhero book.
     
    Last edited: Oct 3, 2012
  17. Mr. Adventure

    Mr. Adventure Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Or clever/open-minded = flexibility perhaps?
     
  18. Thestral

    Thestral Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well, it's certainly possible something crept in without intention. It's convenient that they can so easily align with the elemental metaphor so intentional or not I think it's valid.
     
  19. Nerys Myk

    Nerys Myk A Spock and a smile Premium Member

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    Well I feel its a matter of people seeing Johnny and Ben and thinking "fire and earth" then trying to fit Reed and Sue in as water and air. Stretching doesn't quite equal water and invisibility doesn't quite equal air. And as I mentioned in an earlier post, Ben's visual was supposed to invoke a scaly reptilian surface not rocks, so even that is off.
     
  20. Admiral2

    Admiral2 Admiral Admiral

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    Yeah, people like Stan Friggin' Lee, who's talked at length about the creation of the FF several times.

    According to Stan "The Man," Reed's body was supposed to flow like water, which means in the original writer's terms stretching had nothing to do with it. And I don't know how you don't equate invisibility with air since air IS invisible, and Stan's idea was that air is able to move things invisibly, just like Susan does.

    Yes, according to Jack Kirby, but also according to Jack Kirby he never drew it in a way that looked properly reptilian, so everybody else saw it as earth (early issues) and orange rocks (later issues), including the guy writing the damn comic.

    Water, Air, Earth. Do you really need a detailed explanation as to why Johnny Storm isn't just "human torch 2.0?"