Correct. He also didn't know Spock was betrothed. Or that he had a pet Selat. These guys were friends, but not really confidants until after Spock died.
Kirk was getting to know Spock during the original series, but by the time the movies came around they were supposed to be 20 year-long friends. Friends for that long and Kirk never learned that Spock at least had a brother? I don't buy it.
When I think of the problems with TFF, Uhura's fan dance never makes the list. I have really no problems or issues with that part of the movie. None at all. It's not like you saw her naked or something. And maybe it's just "yougin's" impression that all "old people" look horrific naked. First and foremost, this movie just "felt" off. Maybe I could quantify it after much thought and many words, but I won't do that here. The feeling of the movie is just off. I think some may understand. Never liked the broken down Enterprise. We were so happy to get the lady back at the end of TVH. We cried when she blew up in TSFS. And what happens? It's a lemon. We wanted to see her back in action, not falling apart. And after the trilogy, TFF had the problem of the "OK, what now?" There are the stupid things, like the deck numbers. And, oh, dear god, the rocket boots. Spock is wearing Acme rocket boots. Did anyone see Wile E. Coyote deliver them? But beyond all that, still, what it comes down to for me is the movie felt "off." TUC put them back on track. Which was a blessing for their send-off.
Exactly. Before TOS, Kirk knew Spock for what, a year? By the time of TFF, they'd known each other for over two decades, and had been pretty much together that entire time.
I wouldn't put too muich thought into Star Trek V, the ship had 42 decks, they reached the center of the galaxy iin some 20 minutes and took even less time to reach Numbus III not to mention a broken down and understaffed. And then there's the idea of "God" being taken down by Klingon disruptor fire from a mere Bird of Prey.
To me that sums it up in a nutshell. However, I think the deviation from "normal", "believable" Star Trek stories in TFF was necessary, albeit painful to watch. Now, I'm not suggesting that anyone consciously thought in advance, "Ooooh, let's make a horrendously bad film so the next one can be viewed as really great in comparison!". But, since TFF was such a dud, I think the producers felt compelled to "return to form" as it were in STVI:TUC. Had TFF been even marginally good, the next one might have been mediocre at best. Just a thought. BTW, didn't GR consider TFF apocryphal?
To me that sums it up in a nutshell. However, I think the deviation from "normal", "believable" Star Trek stories in TFF was necessary, albeit painful to watch. Now, I'm not suggesting that anyone consciously thought in advance, "Ooooh, let's make a horrendously bad film so the next one can be viewed as really great in comparison!". But, since TFF was such a dud, I think the producers felt compelled to "return to form" as it were in STVI:TUC. Had TFF been even marginally good, the next one might have been mediocre at best. Just a thought. BTW, didn't GR consider TFF apocryphal?
That's what I've heard, but it doesn't really matter what he thought. Paramount sure as hell doesn't consider it apocryphal, as they're still selling it.
Your point is well taken. Although, from an "in-universe" perspective, it interesting how the events of TFF seem to have no bearing on any stories that come afterward. It's almost as though they never happened (e.g. broken down Enterprise-A, cavorting with Klingons, etc.).
Has anything from TFF been referenced since? If not, or if not substantive, then that would show it hasn't been treated as part of the "official record."
Not that I am aware of. Although, there were only two more "canonical" movies with any members of the original cast - and neither of those stories really required any references to TFF. Also, as you pointed out, after TVH there was no need to follow a story arc through multiple films as there had been previously.
I love TFF. It's my favorite classic Trek movie. To me it contains the heart and soul of the entire original series, and it also has my favorite McCoy scene.
Well, I'm a pretty open minded guy. So I will say this much: sometimes I take myself and my beloved Star Trek just a bit too seriously. I think this is true of some other Trek fans I've met as well. So, if I were to stop doing that and just try to be entertained, I suppose I could see where TFF would be appealing...maybe. ;-)
It's just a very painful movie for me to slog through. I do agree with J. Allen that McCoy's father scenes are done very well, but that alone just cannot make up for every other horrendous aspect of this film. I remember once watching an edited for television version of TFF and thinking what a much better version of the movie it was. In restrospect, I honestly wish TVH was the final film with the original cast. Ending their reign there (and having TNG premiere not long after) would have worked perfectly. Instead we got this ridiculous film, which required another film after it just to redeem the TOS cast for their final goodbye. I've just started a Trek film marathon watch with my fiancee. We've just finished TMP. I'm not looking forward to when we eventually get to TFF.
In TFF it’s, “The Klingons just saved you from the God impostor. Let’s have them over to the ship for a cocktail party and act nice for a couple of hours.” In TUC it’s, “Praxis just blew up. Let’s dismantle the military and the Neutral Zone and give the Klingons a chunk of Federation space.” It’s not difficult to imagine Kirk more easily able to handle the former than the latter. Captain M is completely incorrect to assert that Kirk seemingly forgot his negative feelings toward Klingons. He makes several disparaging comments about Klingons during the course of the film, including referring to them as “you Klingon bastards.” Forget the bridge, what about Uhura’s hair? BTW, it wasn’t a couple of months, it was three weeks. Unfortunately, all three ambassadorial hostages were poorly developed. Caitlin Dar was introduced with great fanfare, and then wasn’t developed at all. The role of Talbot was given to David Warner, and then not developed at all. Korrd, as you point out, turned out to be key to the resolution, despite not having been developed at all. It’s not that much of a stretch. What happened between the TV show and the movies? Kirk became Chief of Starfleet Operations and Spock returned to Vulcan to undergo Kolinahr. What happened between TMP and TWOK isn’t spelled out in the films, but if we ignore later EU materials about a second five-year mission, the films suggest that Kirk returned to a desk job after TMP, Spock took a job at the Academy, and though their paths crossed from time to time they were not working together every day as they had when they served on the Enterprise. My overall opinion of TFF is that it’s a film with some good moments and good ideas, very clumsily executed. It’s inferior to the other five TOS films, but still a good movie that I’m happy to have on BluRay and can enjoy watching repeatedly.
Half-brother. And not so hard to believe. I have a half-sister, a generation older than I am, and very few of even my close friends know about her because the subject just doesn't come up unless I'm rattling off family history for some inexplicable reason. Futhermore, we don't know what kind of info is in Spock's Starfleet record...and maybe personal data of families isn't included.
Right, but does your best friend know? Judging from "Journey to Babel," either family information wasn't in Spock's Starfleet record, or Kirk didn't read it. But that doesn't negate the fact that they were each other's closest friend.
And let's play devil's advocate for a moment and say that Spock never did tell Kirk about Sybok. If I were Kirk, I'd have been far more pissed at Spock than what the movie showed. Kirk risked his career, ship, and life to bring Spock back to life, and Spock still decided to keep this info from him, info which would have possibly averted what happened in TFF? Please.
My "best" friend married my brother ergo she knows all the family scuttlebutt, so that's not an apt comparison. Anyway, I have a hard time picturing Spock and Kirk sitting down and discussing family history. It seems rather unSpocklike to dish on your family.
I wouldn't expect that Spock would dish out everything at once, but if you know a person for that long, I'd expect certain details to slip out over time. Of course, YMMV.