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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies I-X

Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old September 2 2014, 10:17 PM   #31
Ithekro
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Re: Ship to ship combat in various ST movies

Certain battles seem to show Federation and other species ships have "glass jaws" without their shields. Other battles show ships that are very resiliant to damage even if their shields fail. Then there is Enterprise with their polorized hull plating, which is almost shields, and a tech that isn't shared with later Federation starships. Probably because shields are a superior technology, and one assumes, takes up less mass on the ship's hull. Meaning more space for other things. That or the weaponry is so much better that even if the ships so have natural polorized hull plating as standard issue, they won't hold out long against phaser and photon torpedo level weaponry.
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Old September 2 2014, 10:33 PM   #32
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Re: Ship to ship combat in various ST movies

We see in TNG "The Chase" that those "structural integrity fields" suitably cranked up do pretty much the same thing as polarized hull plating - they provide protection against death ray hits without involving actual forcefield shields. Perhaps those two are the very same thing? Perhaps Archer's ship just had SIFs, while all modern ships have both SIFs (set at slightly lower strength as they only need to withstand maneuvering-induced accelerations and whatever impact gets through the forcefield shields) and forcefield shields.

The idea that any natural, physical material could stand up to those death rays is pretty unappealing. Even hand phasers can make physical matter totally disappear, and I don't see how it would make any difference whether that material is 50 kg of man-flesh or 50,000 tons of solid lead - other than the dwell time required for total destruction, that is. But enter magical "SIF" or "polarization" technology, and it's okay. Yet I'd argue that those magical technologies must be inferior to forcefield shielding in terms of protection - because forcefields are inferior to them in terms of not allowing for friendly transporting, and nevertheless are used by starships that could instead utilize various technologies to prevent hostile transporting and protect themselves with SIF or polarization tech.

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Old September 6 2014, 04:37 AM   #33
Enterprise1701
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Re: Ship to ship combat in various ST movies

Can someone here justify to me how there can be all those scenes where ship weapons distinctly dent another ship's hull and yet the crew of the latter ship reports that shields aren't "gone/0%" yet? I could've sworn in Star Trek Into Darkness, the Vengeance's first shot punches a hole straight through the Enterprise's hull and yet later the crew still reports that shields aren't at zero.
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Old September 6 2014, 05:02 AM   #34
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Re: Ship to ship combat in various ST movies

Enterprise1701 wrote: View Post
Can someone here justify to me how there can be all those scenes where ship weapons distinctly dent another ship's hull and yet the crew of the latter ship reports that shields aren't "gone/0%" yet? I could've sworn in Star Trek Into Darkness, the Vengeance's first shot punches a hole straight through the Enterprise's hull and yet later the crew still reports that shields aren't at zero.
SFB explanation is "burn through." The shield absorbs as much damage as it can but the amount of focused energy is great enough to damage the ship anyway. There is only so much energy a shield can actually block, even though it isn't yet inoperative. It works for me as well as any explanation.

What is never explained is when a ship collides with something. Where do shields and the deflector dish come into play then? Who knows. Just accept it, I guess.
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Old September 6 2014, 11:41 PM   #35
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Re: Ship to ship combat in various ST movies

Hypaspist wrote: View Post
Enterprise1701 wrote: View Post
Can someone here justify to me how there can be all those scenes where ship weapons distinctly dent another ship's hull and yet the crew of the latter ship reports that shields aren't "gone/0%" yet? I could've sworn in Star Trek Into Darkness, the Vengeance's first shot punches a hole straight through the Enterprise's hull and yet later the crew still reports that shields aren't at zero.
SFB explanation is "burn through." The shield absorbs as much damage as it can but the amount of focused energy is great enough to damage the ship anyway. There is only so much energy a shield can actually block, even though it isn't yet inoperative. It works for me as well as any explanation.

What is never explained is when a ship collides with something. Where do shields and the deflector dish come into play then? Who knows. Just accept it, I guess.
Gotcha. Thanks.

Y'know I wonder what would happen if a starship fired its phasers on a squad of Borg drones. Would their personal adaptive shields hold up? Cause as demonstrated by the holodeck scene in First Contact, Borg drones do have some weaknesses.
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Old September 7 2014, 12:07 AM   #36
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Re: Ship to ship combat in various ST movies

I have no idea how adaptive shields are supposed to work. I think the best way to rationalize it is just to assume that handheld weapons cannot possibly be made strong enough to overpower a human sized personal shield. In "The Lower Decks," they have to focus fire onto an unshielded shuttlecraft for an extended period just to simulate a glancing shot from a full sized phaser - of which a huge starship has only a few and which require a significant size power generator and deck space to operate from.
So in short, a starship's phaser would vaporize drones and anything around them unless they were protected by a comparably powerful shield source. I think real world rules apply here: bigger source of energy = more power.

I don't know what to make of the holodeck scene. I always look at holodecks and one-off time travel episodes in the same way: don't think about it too much because it is so ridiculously implausible and the purpose is just to tell one story. Would Borg be able to resist basic ballistic weapons? Honestly I don't know why that would kill them in the first place. They're armored to begin with, and they don't need all of their normal vital organs to live anyway. Whatever: First Contact was a good movie, so you overlook it.
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Old September 7 2014, 09:42 PM   #37
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Re: Ship to ship combat in various ST movies

Timo wrote: View Post
I guess the scifi setting actually helps us out - many a dense mini-nebula could be the remnant of an intense space battle, say...

Or even a literal burp, not of a star but of an actual lifeform with a digestive system.

Timo Saloniemi
Now, some of the hot Jupiters that get too close to a parent star get so diffuse that they might as well be nebulae.

Reliant did seem to be hiding in front of a pulsar though.
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Old September 7 2014, 10:38 PM   #38
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Re: Ship to ship combat in various ST movies

publiusr wrote: View Post
Reliant did seem to be hiding in front of a pulsar though.
That shot is so weird... there's this flashing light which just FADES AWAY at the moment Reliant opens fire. Did a "fog bank" just coincidentally block it at the right dramatic moment?
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Old September 8 2014, 12:48 PM   #39
Timo
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Re: Ship to ship combat in various ST movies

Might be the starship's impulse exhaust momentarily lit up something there...

Then again, we see a lot of lightning there. Who's to say some of that wouldn't last for several seconds as opposed to the more common half a second?

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Old September 8 2014, 02:26 PM   #40
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Re: Ship to ship combat in various ST movies

warpusher wrote: View Post
Star Trek vessels of all types seem to be be vulnerable to the early "soft kill"...
]The best type of kill in any military scenario. After all in a fair fight you might lose!

Another example, German fighter aces of World War II typically acted like predators, sitting up high looking for a sitting duck, swooping down, taking them out then swooping off. In the Battle Of Britain when they tried such (daft) tactics as a rear weaver or "tail end charlie", they would often get home to find that pilot missing, with no idea what happened. A tasty target for a predator neatly taken out.

If aware of the 109 on his tail, the decent spitfire pilot would know he could turn tighter than the 109, so quick evasive action would basically make hanging in there unwise for the 109.

In Generations, the Duras sisters open the fight with two nasty looking torpedo hits to the engineering section of the Ent-D, that and as Timo said the fact Soran probably helped with their shields explains the effective sucker punch.
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Old September 9 2014, 05:12 AM   #41
Maurice
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Re: Ship to ship combat in various ST movies

The appropriate response the moment the Duras' first torpedo hit the ship would have been a Nero-esque "Fire everything!" by Riker, followed by "Ahead full!" to gun towards and past the BOP rather than spinning around like a sitting duck in their line of fire.

The whole scene is just stupid.
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Old September 9 2014, 06:42 AM   #42
Hypaspist
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Re: Ship to ship combat in various ST movies

I can't think of any movie or episode where a shield-less ship is anything less than a sitting duck. I can see the problems in the Generations battle: a full spread or whatever would have been enough to do enough damage on that tiny Bird of Prey. The Enterprise would have taken some good hits...maybe even catastrophic damage, but they would have given a lot better than they got. Let's just assume that the first Klingon shot took out their phaser array and call it a nite, shall we?
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Old September 9 2014, 01:51 PM   #43
Marsden
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Re: Ship to ship combat in various ST movies

Maurice wrote: View Post
The appropriate response the moment the Duras' first torpedo hit the ship would have been a Nero-esque "Fire everything!" by Riker, followed by "Ahead full!" to gun towards and past the BOP rather than spinning around like a sitting duck in their line of fire.

The whole scene is just stupid.
Hypaspist wrote: View Post
I can't think of any movie or episode where a shield-less ship is anything less than a sitting duck. I can see the problems in the Generations battle: a full spread or whatever would have been enough to do enough damage on that tiny Bird of Prey. The Enterprise would have taken some good hits...maybe even catastrophic damage, but they would have given a lot better than they got. Let's just assume that the first Klingon shot took out their phaser array and call it a nite, shall we?

Generations as a whole is such a mess, discussing any one aspect of to make sense of it is futile.
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