TheGodBen Revisits Deep Space Nine

Discussion in 'Star Trek: Deep Space Nine' started by TheGodBen, Oct 16, 2011.

  1. Seven of Five

    Seven of Five Stupid Sexy Flanders! Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2001
    Location:
    Staffordshire, UK
    Jesus slow down a bit will you? I checked every frickin day I was on holiday for more updates, but now I'm back at work you're back pumping them out like easy Scott Bakula jokes.

    Why GodBen, WHY?

    Ahem.

    Yay! :rommie:

    AR-588 is a very grim story, but I agree that the use of Quark as a commentator on all the craziness going on was a brilliant move. He's far more interesting than the Quark that pines after Ezri, or is trying to sort out the latest Ferengi shenanigans.

    And of course blowing Nog's leg off at the end was ultimately a very good move by the writers. The episode does very well at showing how shitty war is, and I appreciated it very much.

    Then we have to pause for Covenant, which is another boring one for me. On the one hand, Kira and Dukat sizzle on the screen together, and I find myself gripped to whatever they're talking about.

    That particular week they were reading from Introduction to Cult Writing apparently, as the rest of the episode was plodding and predictable, which is a shame really.

    Luckily, things are back on track with It's Only a Paper Moon, which is excellent. Nog has certainly earned the right to an episode to himself, and it's fascinating watch him retreat away from his real life into Vic's world.
     
  2. Paper Moon

    Paper Moon Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2011
    So I feel I should chime in here. As one might gather from my user name, It's Only A Paper Moon is an episode very close to my heart.

    First, on a "ur-level" (as opposed to a "meta-level"), I love the story. I think TheGodBen nails it: using Nog is a great way for the writers to deal with the trauma of war and the trauma of recovery. Vic is used masterfully, in depicting both his unique skills and his unique limitations, in a way that keeps him from becoming a Mary Sue, but at the same time injects some very different material into the story.

    Ezri's counseling background comes in handy here, allowing further differentiation of her from Jadzia, and is a nice continuity nod to her established position. (As opposed to Worf and his position as Strategic Operations Officer; not much is done with that.) Generally speaking, I'm not a fan of the Incompetent-Psychotherapist trope; even though it makes for easier story-telling, the reality is that psychotherapy is extremely helpful for many people and is a critical component of recovery for many trauma victims. On the other hand, Ezri is still a very young counselor, one who actually hasn't even finished her training. So, in-universe, her limited success with Nog makes some sense. And, as Ben said, we get a (imo) great story out of it, so I'm fine with overlooking it.

    Now, on a more "meta-level": to me, this is a respectful story about Star Trek fans like me.

    A little background: I found Star Trek at a young age in the midst of the greatest trauma of my life. It is possible, of course, that there are worse things yet to come for me; however, I believe that they will not surpass this episode in my life, because I will have emotional coping skills and maturity to help me deal with those traumas, in a way that I could not as a child.

    Star Trek became something for me to hold on to, as my life was turned on its head. Over the course of a summer, I became a die-hard Trekkie. I watched every episode of every series that I could find on TV, then convinced my parents to buy me the (then quite new) DS9 DVD box sets, since it was the only series not available on the air at that time. I plumbed the depths of EAS, DITL, startrek.com, the list went on and on. Lucky enough to have an extremely good memory, I memorized detail after detail, quickly developing a core of knowledge about Star Trek that allowed me not only to enjoy the episodes themselves but also to synthesize, on my own, new stories, theories and observations consistent with the established canon.

    Star Trek, as a universe, became an escape in which I could totally immerse myself.

    I have been fortunate. Unlike Nog, Star Trek has never become an unhealthy escape, a way for me to avoid dealing with real life. In many ways, Star Trek gave me additional tools to deal with real life.

    But there is always this voice in the back of my head, a reminder to be mindful to not lose myself in this, my favorite pastime.

    Paper Moon, I think, speaks to the real healing power that escapes can have when someone has had "too much reality." It acknowledges and respects the healthy ways they can be used, and does not portray Nog as being foolish or weak for seeking refuge in the holosuite. In some ways, he is shown to be very wise and self-aware, enough so that he goes of his own free-will to the place where he can begin to heal.

    But Paper Moon also speaks honestly about the way such an escape can be overused. And it confronts, in a very cathartic way, the reality that you eventually need to go back to living your life. If you don't, you'll die; not all at once, but little by little.

    David Mack, John Ordover and Ronald Moore take us on an emotional journey that is extremely effective, at least, for me. The result is an episode that tells a great story, one of the few of its kind, in the great epic that is DS9, and to a lesser extent, Star Trek, but also a story that transcends its context and becomes relevant in a wide range of circumstances.

    Obviously, Ben, I understand why this episode does not get 5 stars under your rating system. But, for me, it's a 10 out of 10, and one of Trek's finest hours.
     
  3. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2008
    Location:
    Ireland
    I suppose it's possible that they set up a majigger like the one they fooled Moriarty with in Ship in a Bottle so that Vic's program is constantly running, but not being projected in the holosuite unless someone pays to visit. That's probably the best way it interpret it, although it does open the possibility of Bashir wanting to visit Vic late at night and discovering that Vic's sleeping.

    Okay then, just for you I'll take another month-long break. :p


    I was close to giving it 9/10, but settled on 8 at the end. There was a moment in the episode when Vic and Nog were talking when I realised that a weird-looking alien was talking to a holographic 60s lounge singer, and I felt a little embarrassed by the silliness of it. It was only a moment, but it was enough to convince me to keep the rating at four stars.
     
  4. flemm

    flemm Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    May 8, 2009

    You know, it's surprising, in a way, that we don't have that reaction more often when watching these episodes. It shows you, I guess, how much our perceptions of things are determined by conventions and what we expect to see.

    For example, I watched Call to Arms not too long ago. And there's a moment where it's like: the lizard guy is annoyed with the sickly pale/strange ears/weird hair guy, and they are both wearing some sort of elaborate monocle thing that they are staring into. LoL :lol:
     
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2013
  5. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2008
    Location:
    Ireland
    Funnily enough, I was thinking of Call to Arms when I wrote that yesterday, and how the outbreak of war between silly looking aliens was treated with absolute seriousness, but it didn't come across as weird there. It probably has something to do with the mixing of genres; humans and aliens fighting wars in the future makes sense for a sci-fi show, but the inclusion of a 60s lounge singer causes the mind to wobble and realise just how weird the show really is.
     
  6. Seven of Five

    Seven of Five Stupid Sexy Flanders! Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2001
    Location:
    Staffordshire, UK
    I would say Star Trek on the whole is pretty weird. Isn't a lot of sci-fi?

    Or maybe I'm watching the wrong stuff.
     
  7. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2008
    Location:
    Ireland
    Prodigal Daughter (**)

    On this week's very special episode of Deep Space Blossom, Ezri deals with the emotional impact of discovering that her brother is a murderer. In the beginning, the episode seems to be setting itself up as a sequel to Honor Among Thieves, which wasn't an episode that particularly needed a sequel, but I wouldn't say no to such an episode either. Sadly, it's probably this element of the episode that weakens it the most and drags Ezri's story into something of a melodrama.

    The best bits of the episode are towards the beginning as Ezri attempts to make sense of her family life from the new perspective of being joined. It's strange that we're actually meeting Ezri's family considering we never met Jadzia's. Truth be told, I don't remember Jadzia even mentioning any members of her family, all her stories about family life involved previous hosts of the Dax symbiont. (A quick check on Memory Alpha reveals that Jadzia had one sister who sent her glassware at some point.) While it is a little odd that we're meeting Ezri's family, it is one aspect of Trill society we haven't seen before; how families cope when one member of the family essentially becomes a different person. Ezri's relationship with her mother is particularly usual considering Ezri now has more experience in all walks of life than her domineering mother ever will.

    But then O'Brien shows up and we learn that the woman O'Brien was searching for was somehow connected to Ezri's family. This would be a big coincidence on a planet of 7 billion people, in a galaxy of untold trillions it's downright amazing. It turns out that Ezri's brother killed her because nobody ever took him seriously, and it's all the mother's fault. Okay, Ezri's mother isn't the galaxy's best parent, she isn't even worthy of a mug declaring her so, but blaming the murder on her seems a bit harsh. Norvo apparently had psychopathic tendencies and his mother may have exacerbated those, so maybe she deserves some of the blame for that, but Ezri choosing not to console her mother during this crisis seems cruel, and unbecoming of a therapist.
     
  8. Seven of Five

    Seven of Five Stupid Sexy Flanders! Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2001
    Location:
    Staffordshire, UK
    Ugh, I really hated this episode.

    My patience with Ezri was wearing thin after this boring tosh. They should have let it be an O'Brien episode if they wanted to follow up on Honor Amongst Thieves, being as he didn't have his own episode in the final season.

    While it was good to see how Ezri's family see her after she's joined, and essentially a new person, I think the actual family scenes wallowed in banality.

    Feh!
     
  9. Paper Moon

    Paper Moon Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2011
    When people say they wish there were fewer Ezri episodes in S7, I think they're mainly thinking of this one.

    It feels like a S4 episode. The connection to "Honor Among Thieves" is nice enough, although I would have done different things with it than they did.

    I thought the commentary about how extraordinary acts of violence can result from ordinary life experiences was interesting, though perhaps a bit ham-handed and forced. It was also nice to see an aspect of the Federation that wasn't squeaky-clean.

    One other small detail I liked: Morica Bilby. Though we don't see her, what we are told about her makes her, well, a lot less likable than her husband was. It would've been very easy for the writers to make her a sympathetic figure, but the way she's portrayed make her seem unreasonable and greedy. That's a nice, little realistic twist.

    Of course, objectively, we only have anecdotal evidence about her, but still, they don't go to great lengths to give us reason to question that evidence.

    Still, overall, I rewatch this episode rather infrequently.
     
  10. Seven of Five

    Seven of Five Stupid Sexy Flanders! Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2001
    Location:
    Staffordshire, UK
    I also think of Field of Fire, and even mirror-Ezri in The Emperor's New Cloak. Though to be fair, that's an awful episode.

    I was also a bit bored of all the romance stuff in the Final Chapter.
     
  11. flemm

    flemm Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

    Joined:
    May 8, 2009
    Prodigal Daughter is one of the very few DS9 episodes that I remembering having basically no reaction to at all. Certainly not a point in its favor.

    Ultimately, one odd thing about Dax as a character, overall, is how un-interesting, really, the whole concept of the Trill ended up being.

    On paper, it seems like it should be fascinating. But... it never really was.
     
  12. Paper Moon

    Paper Moon Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2011
    Good points. I discounted Field of Fire because a) I think it's actually good and b) it's an Ezri episode, yeah, but it fits within the overall Dominion War arc, and doesn't feel as forced. But I'll save that discussion until we get to it.

    TENC... you know, I understand the dislike of this episode, I guess, but I never really shared it. And I think Ezri's involvement in the story is sorta mandated by the in-universe circumstances, though I can understand why someone would disagree. But I'll save that, too.

    Holy crap, I just looked up the episode order on MA; I hadn't realized that we got these 3 Ezri-heavy episodes in a row. Wow. Not what I would've done.

    Totally agree about the romance in the Final Chapter, at least the
    Ezri-Worf romances,
    not so much about the
    Ezri-Bashir, Sisko-Kasidy, or Kira-Odo romances (holy crap, that's a lotta romance, but somehow it doesn't bother me...)...
     
  13. Seven of Five

    Seven of Five Stupid Sexy Flanders! Premium Member

    Joined:
    May 1, 2001
    Location:
    Staffordshire, UK
    Exactly. It was overkill by this point.

    I just looked at my previous post and saw how vague my comment was. But yeah, Ezri and Worf's thing was a bit much. The rest I didn't have a problem with at all. Sisko/Kasidy and Odo/Kira are two of the best romances in Trek.
     
  14. Thestral

    Thestral Vice Admiral Admiral

    Joined:
    Apr 9, 2009
    Location:
    East Tennessee
    It's the execution more than anything though.
     
  15. Worf'sParmach

    Worf'sParmach Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2011
    Location:
    Plano, TX
    (This is a re-watch thread, do we need to spoiler tag? If that's the case then beware, my post is one big spoiler)

    I never thought about the fact the the final arc was romance heavy, but it really was.

    I think Ezri-Worf needed to be addressed. They probably stretched it out longer than was necessary in the arc, but the two of them needed to get the "weirdness" of their situation out of their system so they could move on.

    I gotta say, I am not at all a fan of the Sisko kid. The marriage thing made sense, it showed how he'd have to choose between being his own person or being "Of Bajor." But throwing the baby in there too? No thanks. A little too much melodrama for my taste.

    Kira and Odo needed resolution as well. I was never a fan of that pairing anyway, I thought their relationship was much more interesting when it was unrequited love, Odo pining for a solid from a far. I think his final episode departure would have been more powerful if that was the moment he told her that he loved her all along, but that he had to go be with his people.

    I liked Ezri and Bashir. Not too overdone, just enough for you to feel like she was moving on with her life as Dax and that Julian was finally getting the girl.

    And the whole Winn-Dukat thing... I don't even know what to say about that :eek:
     
  16. TheGodBen

    TheGodBen Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

    Joined:
    Nov 30, 2008
    Location:
    Ireland
    I think it's a little of both. Especially with Jadzia, it was difficult to care about her past lives as we never saw them, and the only one in the cast who knew Curzon was Sisko, and he had no baggage from the transition. To properly explore Dax's past lives, they had to bring in outside characters, which made things less meaningful to us in the audience.

    With Ezri, it's a little better because all the cast had some sort of relationship with Jadzia, and there was a lot of baggage leftover from her death. Prodigal Daughter was one of the few episodes where exploring the consequences of Ezri's joining meant they had to bring in new characters, and the results were predictably meh.


    The Emperor's New Cloak (*)

    That's like threatening someone with a lifetime supply of chocolate. (I suppose that might be torturous if you were diabetic, but that's pedantry.) I can see why Quark may be affected by such a threat, but as a viewer, that is a terrible hook. Before this DS9 rewatch, I was neutral on Zek, I neither liked nor disliked him. But I can no longer deny the truth; I dislike Zek. Zek is annoying, shallow, and represents the worst excesses of Ferengi culture. But the most damning thing of all is that he's not funny. If it were up to me, I'd let Zek die in the μniverse as a victim of his own greed and stupidity.

    Sadly, Quark thinks differently and decides to rescue him. To do so, he must steal a Klingon cloaking device, which is no simple task considering all the armed Klingon guards, and the increased security during wartime... oh wait, stealing the cloaking device is apparently a trivial issue which is played as a joke. Seriously, how in the name of holy hell are the Dominion losing the war against these nincompoops?!

    Anyway, Quark and Rom travel to the μniverse with μEzri, who is all edgy and shit. You can tell she's edgy because she's wearing a leather outfit and has spiky hair, and is wearing enough eye-shadow to supply the entire state of Belgium for three months. Oh, and she's a lesbian, because Star Trek is progressive like that. There's nothing more progressive than watching a woman in a leather outfit kiss a woman in a latex outfit in an alternate universe where everything is supposed to be twisted and evil. And let's not forget μLeeta, who is also a lesbian. Actually, let's forget about her, it's silly.

    Not quite as silly as μVic Fontaine, who is a real boy. I can understand what happened here, the writers realised that this would be the last μniverse adventure and decided to throw as much crazy stuff that they could come up with into the story in the hope that the zaniness would distract us from the glaring plot-hole that underpins the whole episode; the fact that the Alliance already have bloody cloaking devices!

    The μniverse has had a sad journey on DS9. It started out as a genuinely twisted and sinister take on DS9, with characters that served as an interesting parallel to those in the prime universe. But it soon became a place to have comic-book adventures without fear of serious repercussions, and the attempt to salvage the concept into something meaningful in Resurrection resulted in a somewhat dull distraction to DS9's more interesting storylines. Now the μniverse must suffer the ultimate indignity, relegated to being the setting for a Ferengi comedy episode. What an inglorious way to go.
     
  17. apenpaap

    apenpaap Commodore Commodore

    You gave The Emperor's New Cloak six stars too many, if you ask me. I consider it the absolute worst episode of DS9, and it was the only episode I just couldn't bear to rewatch on my rewatch a while ago. I rewatched LEt he Who is Without Sin..., Meridian, The Muse, Prodigal Daughter, If Wishes Were Horses, Melora, Second Sight, The Reckoning, Valiant, and Time's Orphan, but I couldn't bring myself to watch The Emperor's New Cloak again, and I'd rather watch a marathon of all those other episodes I mentioned than watch The Emperor's New Cloak once.

    However, it has one saving grace: it's the last bad episode of the show. (Extreme Measures isn't too bad as an episode, it just stands out like a sore thumb in the Final Chapter)
     
  18. Worf'sParmach

    Worf'sParmach Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Oct 13, 2011
    Location:
    Plano, TX
    That's the best analysis of the MU I have ever read. I actually never made it all the way through this episode, as soon as Vic appeared I was done.
     
  19. Paper Moon

    Paper Moon Commander Red Shirt

    Joined:
    Oct 28, 2011
    Well, when you put it like all that... :p

    You make great points. I personally disagree about Zek; I like him. I find him funny (of course, YMMV), but I also find him compelling. Zek began the show as you describe: representing the worst excesses of Ferengi society. But he also presided over the greatest set of reforms in Ferengi history since the publication of the Rules of Acquisition. And he supports it, too. It's crazy, but it happens in real life, too (and it's crazy then, too). I find those stories compelling, partly because they give me hope that, someday, older generations will not be such opponents of basic, common-sense progressivism.

    The points about sexuality in the μniverse are certainly valid. I give them credit for making the characters flinch only at the weirdness of seeing people they know so well be so different, and not at their sexuality itself. That actually is progressive. But the issues remain about evil gay characters. (Though, to be fair: Kira is evil, Ezri is ambiguous, but eventually redeems herself [so, not evil], and Leeta is, by the evidence we have, good. So it could've been worse.) And it's unclear to me how much having the gay characters was for shock-value and how much was for legitimate story-telling. So that's problematic.

    Brief side note: what's the biggest difference between Ezri prime and μEzri? The presence of Dax. In all seriousness, is it possible that Ezri Tigan prime generally preferred the company of women and that Ezri Dax prime generally preferred the company of men, presumably due in some way to the joining/presence of Dax? I know the novels establish that Ezri was in some sort of relationship with a male before joining, but I don't think anything's been established in canon. We've been told that joining can change your handedness; why couldn't it have an effect on sexuality?

    I guess the biggest thing for me about this episode is that I don't mind my Trek being a bit comic book-ish, at times. (For example, most people hate Peter David's novel, Before Dishonor, for this same reason, but I think it's great, one of my favorite Trek novels, actually.) Okay, so the plot falls apart if you look too closely. So you have two choices: a) have fun filling in details that make it work, or b) have fun and just sit back and enjoy the ride.

    So the writers decide to go play in the sandbox of the μniverse. Okay. Works for me.

    (Also, as noted on MA and in the Companion, Ira Steven Behr is on record as saying,
    So the whole thing may've been a bit tongue-in-cheek. I'm fine with that, too.)

    With all that said, I am sympathetic to the view expressed here:

    I'm not as harsh on Ferengi comedies as you are, but I agree that there were real story opportunities missed here.

    Good heavens, I'd watch TENC multiple times before re-watching The Muse, Meridian or Melora! Wow... :)
     
  20. TheRoyalFamily

    TheRoyalFamily Commodore Commodore

    Joined:
    Feb 9, 2005
    The only thing I really dislike is the premise. I could see the humans wanting a cloak for their ships, and I guess hopping to another universe full of naive suckers would be easier than stealing it from folks that will kill you on sight. But we know the evil empire has cloaks. That's just dumb.

    I don't find the rest too bad. It was a decent Ferengi episode, and a stupid-fun romp in the mirror universe. I never really liked the μniverse in DS9 anyways, but the silly Ferengi stuff made it bearable.