Spoilers The Never Ending Sacrifice - Review Thread

Discussion in 'Trek Literature' started by Idoliside, Aug 22, 2009.

  1. BrotherBenny

    BrotherBenny Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Nerys, Sci, this has been a very interesting debate and I can see where both sides are coming from, so let me add my two cents.

    What Sisko did was illegal under Federation law at the very least. Both Bajor and Cardassia are sovereign states and the custody should have been handled by a Bajoran court. Sisko operated way outside his authority and may have even violated the Prime Directive by interfering in the affairs of a sovereign state.

    Yes, the episode should have operated on a longer span of time in order to fully justify Rugal's relocation to Cardassia, and his state of mind etc regarding said indoctrination, but it didn't. Una could just as easily have Rugal escaping back to Bajor but her forte is the Cardassians and her creativity flows that way. Maybe a book can be written from the Bajoran side of this argument...that would be neat.

    In the end it boils down to this. Everything got screwed up.
     
  2. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Agreed that DS9 is Bajoran territory (I admit I wasn't even thinking of that), but doesn't that in itself *make* it a Bajoran court for purposes of this hearing? Even if the station is commanded by a non-Bajoran?

    Like I said, Sisko was the only arbiter that both parties would accept. If it had been anyone else, at least one of them would have refused to participate. That has to count for something.

    Leaving aside the question of legality, we can't ignore the fact that both parties - Proka and Kotan - AGREED to let Sisko decide their case. Now if Proka, for example, had changed his mind and tried to appeal (does he do this in the novel, BTW?), he may have had a point. But he didn't.
     
  3. Sci

    Sci Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    No, it makes it Bajoran territory being used as a foreign military base by consent of the Bajoran government.

    It doesn't matter if Kotan wouldn't accept a Bajoran court. A Bajoran court would be the only institution with the legal right to decide the case.

    It's not theirs to decide. It's the Bajoran government's to decide and no one else's.

    He does, several times, even trying to arrange meetings with members of the Chamber of Ministers, to no avail.
     
  4. Thor Damar

    Thor Damar Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I finally got my warm gray hands on a copy of TNES a couple of days ago and I just finished reading it.

    The first thing that I'll say is that I wished it was as long as its cardassian namesake (though not in repetitive epic form obviously). I think that this is one of the more unique DS9 novels, very political but also personal.

    The Cardassia described within these pages is substantially different in terms of social make up and political operations. I knew that power rested with the Central Command with the Obsidian Order and the Detpa Council distant seconds but I was surpised to see that the Order had held the real power in the Union (until 2371 of course). It seems that the power sturctures in the Union were a lot more fluid than I had previously thought.

    Which brings me to what I mistakenly called the Cardassian Revolution of 2372. I never quite saw it as the coup that it actually was, more akin to the events of the Torr Massacre. The class status of the Five really brought home to me just how different this Cardassia is. I had always seen it as a completely militaristic dictatorship with a thin veneer of civilian control. Therefore as all political and economic power rested with the Guls there would be less class conflict between Cardassians.

    It would appear not to be the case. The service grades do not enjoy much political legitimacy and interaction with involvement in politics, the sciences and the military hierarchy being the sole reseve of the conturim elite.

    The nature of the Cardassian system is one of the many fascinating aspects of this wonderful novel. I haven't even talked about the personal journey of Rugal Pa'dar which is one of the most moving stories in trek history.

    I consider it to be a interesting analogue for the Cardassian people themselves.

    A truly great novel. :bolian:
     
  5. Una McCormack

    Una McCormack Writer Red Shirt

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    Good catch! And I'm very glad you enjoyed the book.
     
  6. The Nth Doctor

    The Nth Doctor Infinite Possibilities... Premium Member

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    Sweet! I love it when my mental casting of a book character was the intention of the author. :D
     
  7. Marie1

    Marie1 Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I am loving this book so far!

    (Shakes fist over the delay in getting it... silly conspiring universe)
     
  8. Lindley

    Lindley Moderator with a Soul Premium Member

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    Just finished reading it. Very strong overall.

    My only criticism is that Rugal's motivation for desertion could have been clearer. That entire sequence seemed to be more "what" than "why", and it left me scratching my head a bit. Especially since his friend was wounded, and probably would have been better off in Romulan custody.
     
  9. Sci

    Sci Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    What makes you think the Romulans are in the habit of treating prisoners of war humanely? What makes you think his injured friend wouldn't be summarily executed?
     
  10. Lindley

    Lindley Moderator with a Soul Premium Member

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    I'm not saying he didn't have a good reason, I'm just saying that the book didn't communicate his thought process as well as it could have.

    I did like the Pen relationship. That sort of bond----apparently sexless, but simply right in an indefinably romantic way----is my favorite type of pairing, really.
     
  11. Sci

    Sci Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Aah, okay. You seemed to be saying that you thought his injured friend would be better off in Romulan custody, hence my confusion.
     
  12. Lindley

    Lindley Moderator with a Soul Premium Member

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    I'm saying it was odd that he didn't reflect on the possibility given his medical background.
     
  13. T'Ressa Dax

    T'Ressa Dax Captain Captain

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    Finally had a chance to read the book and liked it well enough that I just had to finish the final third in one day out of curiosity. I even liked the military portions.
    Cardassions is one of my favorite episodes so seeing what happened to Rugal was very interesting. I'm also glad he and Pen were back together at the end. Can't help but like Garak. He's an interesting, complex character.

    I also wouldn't mind a follow up book mentioning what happened afterward.
     
  14. shanejayell

    shanejayell Captain Captain

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    *late*

    Yeah, I didn't get this at first because I thought it'd be dull.

    BOY was I wrong! VERY good book and a great look at Cardassian Society. I'd love to see a sequel, too.
     
  15. DevilEyes

    DevilEyes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I knew that I would love this book, since I always loved Trek works that focus on characterization and a portrayal of alien societies and cultures and their complexities, rather than those that are plot-driven or full of technobabble. And, I've always found Cardassians one of the most interesting Trek species and enjoyed the episodes that focused on them - including Cardassians. I really wanted to see the continuation of that story. And as I expected, I really enjoyed the novel. There's not much to add to what many others have said, so this will be short. My favorite parts were those that portrayed the Cardassian society before the war. Unlike Nerys, it fit with my ideas about Cardassia that I got from the shows, so I had no problem immersing myself into it. (But just like Nerys, I didn't have such a favorable view of Proka Migdal from the episode, although I had no problems accepting the TNES portrayal.) The portrayal of the Detapa Council and their 'revolution' and its aftermath especially rang true, reminding me of some of my own experiences and the real-life examples of 'revolutionary' movements that strive to bring down authocratic regimes, but are in fact very fractured and problematic themselves, with confused ideologies and a mix of idealists and opportunists in their ranks, and I am familiar with the disappointment that comes when it turns out that such a revolution didn't really change the fundamentals of the system, or when the new authorities start exhibiting striking similarities to the old one, or aligning themselves with dubious representatives of the old regime.

    The original characters were really good - particularly Geleth; her backstory was great. Kotan, Ziyal and Tekeny were also wonderfully portrayed, as was Garak.

    I loved the war part as well and particularly the part on Ithic, and what it showed about the not-so-perfect/evolved Human race and Human sanctimoniousness. I've always been bothered by the "Humans are the nicest and most wonderful race in the galaxy" moments in Trek shows. (The capitalization, BTW, is intentional - in Trek terms, it only makes sense to write "Human" with a capital H, just as we write Cardassian, Bajoran, Romulan etc.)

    On a side note, it was cool that the little girl seemed to be of Turkish origin. Sometimes it seems that the vast majority of Human characters we get to see in Trek are from English-speaking countries, with an occasional French, Russian or Japanese person thrown in to show some 'diversity'.

    A couple of things that bothered me: the ending felt a little rushed and I was disappointed that Kotan was barely even mentioned. And I didn't like the way that, near the end, the book seemed to be hammering it home that Sisko's decision to send Rugal back to Cardassia was wrong, with Rugal and O'Briens both voicing that opinions, and nobody to voice an opposite one. For one thing, I don't agree, or at least I would say that the issue is far from clear-cut. And I don't like when books (or episodes) try to tell the readers (or viewers) what they are supposed to think, without allowing the opposite view to be heard.

    Um, what??! :cardie: :cardie::cardie: Kotan was a victim, having his child kidnapped (his only child, to make it worse, and after he had lost his wife) and made to believe that he was dead for years. Please tell me how a parent wanting their child back that was taken from them against their will and through no fault of their own is wrong or... a "state kidnapping"?! :wtf:

    While on the other hand, growing up and living surrounded by people who hated his species, constantly being a target of racial abuse, and being taught to hate his own species was really wonderful for his development. :rolleyes:

    Not to mention that you seem to imply that the very fact that a person has a misfortune to live in an undemocratic state or a flawed and troubled society, is enough to deny them their parental rights. If, say, someone kidnaps their child, and then the child ends up in another country and gets adopted, the biological parents should lose their right only because their country is judged to be not so nice as the other one? Very disturbing.

    Oh. You really ARE arguing that. :eek: :wtf:

    Yes, I am sure that those people living in all those autocratic societies should just be happy to have their children taken away from them, if only it is possible. They should just exclaim: Please, people from the wonderful liberal democracies, your countries and your way of life are so obviously and undeniably better than ours, please come and taken our children away to a better life!

    :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

    But it's not absurd to assume that the entire galaxy and all sorts of alien species would share your political views, and that absolutely everyone in the universe would be happy to live in a liberal democracy - and not just that, everyone in the universe would find living in a democracy much more important than being with their own biological family?

    That's a concept that is even not shared by everyone (probably not even the majority of people) throughout the world today.

    The most confusing part is how you can reconcile this view with this one:
    Let's remind ourselves again:
    Right. :wtf:

    If you don't know what the Bajoran law is, why do you keep assuming what it is and that there would be a problem from the Bajoran legal point of view?

    Yes, that's why the Bajoran authorities protested that the decision was left to Sisko, and did their best to question his authority and overrule his decision. Oh wait...

    So, again, you have no idea what the Bajoran law is, and you are arguing that we shouldn't impose our ideas on another culture, but at the same time you assume you know what the Bajoran stance would be? :cardie: :vulcan:

    And by your logic, any child that grew up under the Occupation was living in abusive circumstances that were damaging to the child's development. Does that mean that all Bajorans living under the Occupation were unfit parents if they wanted to raise their children themselves, rather than, I don't know, say, send them off-world if they only could?

    How do you know? For all we know, the Bajoran laws might regard the Emissary of the Prophets as the utmost authority on such matters. Aren't you just, to paraphrase yourself, applying a distinctly Earth/Terran standard to a non-Human, non-Federation world?

    :eek::eek::eek: Nerys, I am shocked to see you lumping Jane Austen and the Bronte sisters all together. I am always annoyed when people mention them in the same sentence - unless it was to state how COMPLETELY AND FUNDAMENTALLY DIFFERENT Emily Bronte's world, mindset and literally style is from that of Jane Austen! It's like implying that Oz, DS9 and Friends are all the same, because, well, they're all TV shows that started in the 1990s! It really seems like an example of people lumping female writers together for no other reason that they were all FEMALE and they happened to live in the same century. :rolleyes:

    Charlotte Bronte is very, very different from Austen. And then Emily Bronte is on the whole other end of the spectre - as different from Austen as two writers can possibly be! The Bronte sisters share some traits with each other (which are in huge contrast to Austen), but they're hardly one entity! Jane Eyre was a shocking and somewhat revolutionary novel in its day, but seems more conventional and somewhat naive from today's perspective... But Wuthering Heights is a whole different beast - it was both innovative in its narrative technique, and just too shocking and generally - just too much for the Victorian sensibilities, so much that it was completely misunderstood and under-appreciated in its time. Even Emily's sister Charlotte seemed confused by it and not really too appreciative (judging by her introduction to the second edition).

    It feels particularly grating because I've never been a fan of Jane Austen - she does what she does OK, but it's just not my thing, and I can only tolerate her at best... while on the other hand, Wuthering Heights has always been one of my favorite novels of all time.

    Regarding the habit people have of lumping very different female authors just because they are female - I've read a feminist essay that detailed the contemporary criticism of the novel when I was at the university... It is very telling on the gender-based attitudes in society and the literary criticism. When Wuthering Heights was first published under the alias Ellis Bell - and every critic assumed that the author was male; the reviews all focused on the novel's brutality and the story of hatred and revenge that spans two generations. One critic even wrote that one has the impression that the author must be a rough, uncouth man, maybe a sailor or something like that (!), and that the novel is really not suitable for ladies from the polite society to read. Then when the next editions came in the following years, after Emily's death, under the name of Emily Bronte... guess what, all the new reviews were focused on the love story and treating it as a romance novel. Typical, isn't it? :rolleyes:
     
    Last edited: Feb 7, 2010
  16. Nerys Ghemor

    Nerys Ghemor Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Brief detour on Austin and the Brontes...suffice it to say that Pride and Prejudice and Jane Eyre were the two worst piles of shit I had to suffer through in English class (well, excepting Hemingway and The Color Purple...that last being a statement that I know will shock a lot of people, but there are other minority-written books I like MUCH better). Even worse that my English teachers were harping on how "liberated" the main characters in both novels were when there was absolutely ZERO evidence of it in the book. Even worse that I had to suffer through Jane Eyre TWICE because I moved to a different school and it was in a different place in their curriculum. Good Lord, I just about wanted to throw up as I read Jane Eyre, and Pride and Prejudice wasn't much better.

    MAYBE Wuthering Heights would be better...but after those two books, and even after trying out a couple modern romance novels, I came to the conclusion that I just despise the whole genre with very, very few exceptions. (The movie My Big Fat Greek Wedding being one of the very few.) The women tend to be hideously submissive, blindingly stupid (or in modern romances, totally without restraint and the same for the men they fall for), and I have never found anything even remotely real or convincing when it comes to romance.

    But as for what you said on the subject of The Never-Ending Sacrifice, I couldn't agree more! Ironic, that someone advocating the supremacy of liberal democracy, which respects the rights of the individual, then argues it's OK to completely trample all over Kotan Pa'Dar's parental rights because he comes from the wrong race and the wrong country.
     
  17. DevilEyes

    DevilEyes Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Wait, are you saying that you haven't actually read Wuthering Heights?

    It is a very different book from the other two - it's a unique novel, IMO - and I really don't think you can just lump it with those other books into a so-called "romance genre". I don't know if you would like it or not, but it's certainly a book that needs to be read to be judged. The women are certainly not submissive, when they're acting stupid in their choices they're called upon it... but the novel is not a work of realism either, it has a very strong Romantic feel and mindset - Romantic in the Blakeian sense of the word. The lack of an all-knowing narrator also makes it very different - the author is never really telling you directly how to feel about the characters. The two main characters are wild, passionate and selfish, larger-than-life Byronic characters, particularly Heathcliff who actually could be seen as a villain as much as the hero of the book; while the narrators are rational and down-to-earth people who view them with a mix of curiosity and a very judgmental and unfavorable attitude, as people who present a threat to a polite, civilized society. The readers may find themselves agreeing or disagreeing with those views (which, I suspect, were not exactly the author's), and may have different attitudes towards the main or the supporting characters. It's also a kind of novel that really lends itself to sociological or feminist analysis, with its themes about the patriarchal society and class, race, gender, outsider vs insider, civilization vs nature, etc.

    Jane Eyre is indeed a lot more similar to what one would call a "romance novel", but it's also a bildungsroman to the same extent, being essentially a story about an orphan, and later a young poor governess in the Victorian society. In that sense, I'd lump it with Dickens rather than with Austen, especially since both share the same naive sentimentality and emotional tone, although Dickens' romances were usually even more naive and less compelling than Charlotte Bronte's (except for his late works, like Great Expectations or Our Mutual Friend, where they were written quite well). And the heroine of Jane Eyre really was very liberated for the standards of her day and age, even if this may not come across today. For one thing, she was an independent young woman from poor background standing up for herself, and secondly, a female expressing desire and passionate love was a shocking concept for the polite Victorian society, strange as it may seem today.

    I'm not sure I'd really call Austen's novels romances, as, for one thing, I don't find them 'romantic' in any sense of the word. They come across more as smart, witty, rational depictions of English middle-class society of that era, the social interactions, gossips, about financial matters and matchmaking. Sure, they deal with romances and end in marriages, but in those times and for those people, marriage was not just a matter of love but also the woman's primary career, so to speak; it's what her social status depended on. If she was from a well-off family, she was only expected to be accomplished (say, to read, play the piano...) in order to impress the polite society, to find a good husband, and to be a presentable wife/mother/lady. Therefore, finding a husband, for Austen's heroines was not just a romantic matter as it would be in modern day romances, it was also about finding a place in the world and achieving social success.

    But I've never really been able to warm up to Austen, since the characters and the books themselves completely lack any passion or strong emotions that one can find in the books of Thomas Hardy, the Brontes, or even Dickens.
     
  18. T'Ressa Dax

    T'Ressa Dax Captain Captain

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    Not a big Austen fan here either, and I don't think I've ever read anything by the Brontes.
    I also didn't mind The Color Purple too much.

    But anyway, if it's strong, stubborn women you want you should try Nora Roberts. In some cases both the man and the woman have to be convinced they even want to be together. Or the woman might be more intersted than the man in one book, with the opposite being true in the other. Sometimes the first kiss isn't til halfway through the novel. And there's always more of a plot than "How fast will these characters become a couple, have sex and get married? ANd how often will they have sex in the novel?"

     
  19. neogothboy74

    neogothboy74 Commander Red Shirt

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    Just finished this a few days ago. Loved it. A lot. The only thing that bothered me in the whole novel was what I took as a slight continuity flaw early in the story, when Proka Migdal is speaking to Rugal and he says they're trying to elect a new Kai, and then it says 9 days later T. Ghemor has fled Caradassia. I seem to remember the electing of the Kai storyline ending in 2nd Season's "The Collaborator" while Ghemor's fleeing Cardassia takes place in Season 3's "Second Skin". Not only does that put like 7 episodes between those events, I think there's an average of 3 months between seasons of DS9, so that '9 days later' took me out of the story at the time, but that's a pretty minor flaw all things considered, and I might be remembering it wrong anyways. Kudos!
     
  20. JoeZhang

    JoeZhang Vice Admiral Admiral

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    I think this book is fantastic, maybe the best trek book I've ever read.