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Old December 31 2013, 03:24 PM   #166
USS Triumphant
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

Rķu rķu, chķu wrote: View Post
As for Janeway messing with the timeline: You can't measure the effects of that,
Sure I can - she killed EVERYONE. It doesn't matter that parallel versions of those people still exist, what you just said was basically like saying that it wouldn't be evil if I arbitrarily killed mirror-O'Brien, because we still have one. It doesn't work that way. Those people had histories and lives.
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Old December 31 2013, 06:25 PM   #167
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

For the worst First officer, may I suggest Lieutenant Commander Christopher Hobson. Yes, his fears about Data were'nt totally infounded. He didn't really know Data, so it's not surprising that he believed Data was a soulless computer. But he was not simply misinformed dude, he was a real insubordinate and racist jerk. You're a fellow officer and I respect that, but no one would suggest that a Klingon would make a good ship's counsellor or that a Berellian could be an engineer. They're just not suited for those positions. Great, caste system, racial stereotypes...

This guy deserved to be affected on a ship with a lot of aliens with unusual positions...and Jellico as Captain to kick his ass.
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Old December 31 2013, 07:37 PM   #168
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
Rķu rķu, chķu wrote: View Post
As for Janeway messing with the timeline: You can't measure the effects of that,
Sure I can - she killed EVERYONE. It doesn't matter that parallel versions of those people still exist, what you just said was basically like saying that it wouldn't be evil if I arbitrarily killed mirror-O'Brien, because we still have one. It doesn't work that way. Those people had histories and lives.
So did those in the Klingon War timeline from "Yesterday's Enterprise". True, many died, but many did not. So then why is Picard not a murderer for eliminating that timeline, yet Janeway is one because of "Endgame"?
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Old December 31 2013, 08:10 PM   #169
USS Triumphant
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

Rķu rķu, chķu wrote: View Post
So did those in the Klingon War timeline from "Yesterday's Enterprise". True, many died, but many did not. So then why is Picard not a murderer for eliminating that timeline, yet Janeway is one because of "Endgame"?
I'm not saying he isn't! But, preservation of your people is one of those things we give passes for doing things like that for, and Picard seemed fairly convinced humanity was going to lose and be on the way out or enslaved. And like I said, Janeway at least had the best interests of her crew at heart - still pretty screwed up that she was willing to sacrifice everyone else, but not nearly as bad as Braxton, who was willing to destroy the populations of *multiple* timelines for hate of a single person. Not to mention that this was a man whose ship was associated with something called the Temporal Integrity Commission - so presumably, possibly unlike Picard and Janeway, he knew *exactly* what the implications of his actions were.
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Old December 31 2013, 08:21 PM   #170
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

And what about "Timeless"? Didn't Kim and Chakotay have the right to try and fix the timeline so, you know, their entire crew doesn't get killed when Voyager crashes?

Some timelines simply deserve to be eliminated. And you can't simply handwave it away and say "Oh, what if all these people don't exist" or anything like that, because there is no proof that they will. Should Kim and Chakotay have not even tried to fix the timeline on the assumption that one of their crewmates eventually became the parent of the next Hitler or Stalin?

And as for the concept of "temporal duplicates": If somebody exists in one future timeline, and also in another, that is effectively the same exact person. It's not like parallel universe versions of the same character (a universe is not the same as a timeline), such as MU and RU versions of Miles O'Brien. For example: Harry Kim, in the "Timeless" future, is alive. So is his counterpart in the timeline where the ship does not crash. Both are equally Harry Kim.
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Old December 31 2013, 08:45 PM   #171
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

Rķu rķu, chķu wrote: View Post
Both are equally Harry Kim.
Fascinating. You seem to be making my argument for me.

In direct response: exactly. And if so, then who has the right to choose one over the other? All of these actions you're talking about ARE morally questionable, yes. Does that mean I am judging these people as bad? Mostly, no, because I have to admit that I would probably make the same decision when it comes to saving MY version of the people I care about. (Although really, that may not be what is happening at all - they may just be ending up with 'close enough': so close that they can't tell the difference. But that's another discussion.)

The reason I DO judge Janeway is because she had time with these people through the years, and one would hope some affection for and empathy with coworkers and friends that she had made in the meantime. She might not understand exactly how the temporal changes would work, but she had to have some idea that there was a strong possibility that she would be DESTROYING all of those people - other versions might be there when she was done, but they wouldn't be the SAME people with the same personal histories, and we are, in part if not in GREAT part, the sum of our experiences. ("I NEED my pain.") But, she, at least, had concern for her crew apparently at heart, so I don't condemn her ALTOGETHER.

Braxton, though, knew EXACTLY what he was doing, what effect it would have, and no positive motivation at all - only hate and selfishness. And the attempted murder of at least three universes worth of people.

Let me put the lie to your suggestion that these alterations don't matter: Suppose you were some run of the mill citizen of Earth, with family and friends, when Admiral Janeway made her attempt to go back and change things, and you found out in time to try to stop her. Would you? Why? I mean, it doesn't matter, right? There will just be another you and another version of your loved ones and that will be just hunky-dory, RIGHT?
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Old December 31 2013, 10:32 PM   #172
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
Let me put the lie to your suggestion that these alterations don't matter: Suppose you were some run of the mill citizen of Earth, with family and friends, when Admiral Janeway made her attempt to go back and change things, and you found out in time to try to stop her. Would you? Why? I mean, it doesn't matter, right? There will just be another you and another version of your loved ones and that will be just hunky-dory, RIGHT?
There are so many variables in that equation that I can't even begin to pin anything down. About the only thing I can say is this: Since there's no proof that my life would be in any way affected by Janeway's actions, there's not a whole lot I can do. I choose to interpret things this way: Either the current timeline will continue, and Janeway's actions will result in a new timeline that exists alongside my own (similar to ST XI), in which case I won't notice anything at all. Or, conversely, I will continue to exist in the new timeline, and will be exactly the same person I am in the old one. In which case I may notice the changes, but I won't care, since I'll still be alive. So why worry? Think about it.
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Old December 31 2013, 10:53 PM   #173
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

Rķu rķu, chķu wrote: View Post
In which case I may notice the changes, but I won't care, since I'll still be alive. So why worry? Think about it.
I am. I wonder if you are, because you imply you would "notice the changes". You wouldn't. YOU wouldn't do anything, anymore, EVER, unless her actions resulted in quantum branching, in which case you're right that nothing would change for you at all other than Janeway would be gone (hurray!), but that isn't generally what happens in Trek. (At least, not *during* episodes. Obviously, the Mirror Universe came from *somewhere*.) Some parallel version of you would be around, and they wouldn't notice jack squat, because for them (NOT YOU) things have *always* been the way they are after the changes.

But let's assume that YOU managed to get into temporal shielding or some such and WERE protected from the changes, and so you DID notice them. Your daughter is gone, and you're married to some other woman and have a son you've never met. Your best friend died two years ago in an accident that never happened in your memory. Still feeling all casual about this? *There is a reason Worf wanted to get HOME in "Parallels"!* One continuity is NOT just as good as another, and even if it might be better in some ways, it won't be "the way it should be". And Murphy's Law being what it is, it is likely that instead of ending up wealthy (affluent, whatever the Federation equivalent is) and happily married to some smoking hottie with all of your family and friends happy healthy and prosperous, you're going to end up on crazy-eyed, bearded Captain Riker's ship on the run from the Borg with everything falling apart around you. Still feeling okey-dokey with all this or are you trying to stop Janeway yet?
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Old December 31 2013, 11:06 PM   #174
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

No actual timelines were destroyed in the making of this episode.
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Old December 31 2013, 11:38 PM   #175
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

The Old Building & Loan wrote: View Post
No actual timelines were destroyed in the making of this episode.
Filmed in front of a live studio audience.
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Old January 4 2014, 06:12 PM   #176
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Re: The absolute worst captain in Star Trek

USS Triumphant wrote: View Post
The Old Building & Loan wrote: View Post
No actual timelines were destroyed in the making of this episode.
Filmed in front of a live studio audience.
Better:

Shot in front of a live studio audience.


The screenwriter that is.
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