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Old May 23 2014, 04:11 PM   #61
QCzar
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Re: Game of Thrones 4.7 - "Mockingbird" - Rate and discuss

Irvy wrote: View Post
I'm always slightly concerned about people who make moral judgements on characters from an entirely different (and fictional) universe based on contemporary moral social standards.

FICTION!
Concerned? Why?

There is no one correct way to enjoy fiction and there's no rule that says you have to check your morality when reading/viewing it. I also tend to adopt the ethics of the heroes/anti-heroes in a story as I feel it aides in immersion, but I don't chide people for not doing it. And we all have our limits (all of us that are not sociopaths, that is), as I'd find it difficult to find no fault in a character who espouses positive views about things like rape and slavery.

Doesn't lessen my enjoyment of the material, if it's good and the reprehensible actions are in context. But it being fictional or contextual doesn't make the act itself any less abhorrent. And remember, Irvy, most times the writer wants you to be affected, to challenge your preconceptions. Arguably, ASOIAF or something like Macbeth is built on this as a premise. That the way one is affected would be so variable is not a fault (of either the writer or the audience) but is instead exactly the point.

I don't find Arya's actions all that appalling, given the circumstances and the character's evolution, but I can understand why others would.
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Old May 23 2014, 04:14 PM   #62
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Re: Game of Thrones 4.7 - "Mockingbird" - Rate and discuss

I wholeheartedly disagree with Irvy. Martin himself has been pretty explicit that he includes all these morally ambiguous (and some not-so-ambiguous) situations precisely because he wants people to discuss and think critically about them. Without that level of discussion, what's really left? Violence (and regular) porn?
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Old May 23 2014, 04:55 PM   #63
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Re: Game of Thrones 4.7 - "Mockingbird" - Rate and discuss

Rowan Sjet wrote: View Post

I'd say that little shit wasn't breastfed enough, but we know that's not the case.
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Old May 23 2014, 06:57 PM   #64
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Re: Game of Thrones 4.7 - "Mockingbird" - Rate and discuss

bbjeg wrote: View Post
Lapis Exilis wrote: View Post
bbjeg wrote: View Post

Rouge wasn't there to kill Arya, him and his partner wanted the Hound.
And, after they'd killed him, what do you think they'd do to the 13 year old girl he had with him? I believe he had already described his intentions fairly graphically.

She was totally justified in killing him.
Just because someone says something, doesn't mean they're going to do it. Joffrey said he'd send Ned Stark to the Wall and we know how that turned out. Personally, I wouldn't call what she did justified, I'd call it evil, pure and simple. She's no longer just out for revenge anymore.
I would agree that Arya is not about simple revenge, and plainly on her way to becoming amoral.

However, I can tell you that from having been a 13 year old girl in our world, which is relatively safe but where something along the lines of 70% of females in America still experience sexual assault (my own experiences in that realm are relatively mild, but far from non-existent) - if I were a 13 year old girl in the world of ASOIAF and a full grown man who had the means (a sword in hand) told me they intended to rape me to death with a weapon, I would take the first opportunity I had to kill them.

If they were lying, then that's too bad, because if you threaten me with violent death via sexual assault, you've given up any right you have to my mercy. There's too much of a chance that you would carry out this horrendous deed and it is only reasonable in a world torn by war, where I am a small female, and thus at risk every second of every day and night, that morality take a back seat to self-preservation. I'd rather be alive and judged evil by someone who doesn't understand the risk and fear I live under, than dead and judged moral.


QCzar wrote: View Post

And remember, Irvy, most times the writer wants you to be affected, to challenge your preconceptions. Arguably, ASOIAF or something like Macbeth is built on this as a premise. That the way one is affected would be so variable is not a fault (of either the writer or the audience) but is instead exactly the point.
Indeed - where Arya actually falls on a moral spectrum even as she progresses toward her (apparent) final choice to become a giver of death is highly debatable, which is a great strength of the story. Her storyline is one of the ones I find most engaging and I am deeply interested in her final fate in the overall story.
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Old May 23 2014, 07:59 PM   #65
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Re: Game of Thrones 4.7 - "Mockingbird" - Rate and discuss

Let's just hope she doesn't decide to get married! It's practically suicide around there!
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Old May 23 2014, 08:31 PM   #66
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Re: Game of Thrones 4.7 - "Mockingbird" - Rate and discuss

Lapis Exilis wrote: View Post

If they were lying, then that's too bad, because if you threaten me with violent death via sexual assault, you've given up any right you have to my mercy.
This. I really can't believe people think Arya should have given him a chance after threatening her the way he did. Given the context of her last interaction with him and her current one, she was very justified.
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Old May 24 2014, 04:42 AM   #67
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Re: Game of Thrones 4.7 - "Mockingbird" - Rate and discuss

Savage Dragon wrote: View Post
Lapis Exilis wrote: View Post

If they were lying, then that's too bad, because if you threaten me with violent death via sexual assault, you've given up any right you have to my mercy.
This. I really can't believe people think Arya should have given him a chance after threatening her the way he did. Given the context of her last interaction with him and her current one, she was very justified.
I was talking with some people at work about this. One of my female co-workers said this exact thing. One of the males responded with the same "No, a verbal threat is not an action and Arya's response was not justified" opinion that was mentioned here.

Another male colleague got frustrated and said, "Oh, tell the truth! The idea of a little girl being proactive and protecting herself from an all powerful man totally emasculates you."

Dead silence. Male number one walked away.

My feeling is that there may well be a tiny bit of that at play with some people.
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Old May 24 2014, 04:54 AM   #68
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Re: Game of Thrones 4.7 - "Mockingbird" - Rate and discuss

There is something unsettling about being run through with Arya's poker that seems different than dying by swordfight. I didn't give a thought to her being wrong until reading it here though. I was actually a bit more disturbed by the Hound dispatching that old guy, he was dying but didn't really seem to be looking for a quicker out.
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Old May 24 2014, 11:00 AM   #69
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Re: Game of Thrones 4.7 - "Mockingbird" - Rate and discuss

Mr. Adventure wrote: View Post
I was actually a bit more disturbed by the Hound dispatching that old guy, he was dying but didn't really seem to be looking for a quicker out.
Really? I thought it showed a merciful side of the Hound and in his last seconds that guy seemed to appreciate it.

BTW, I think Arya was absolutely right in her actions.
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Old May 24 2014, 12:57 PM   #70
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Re: Game of Thrones 4.7 - "Mockingbird" - Rate and discuss

Well, Arya certainly did the right thing, since Rorge
in the book. Makes me pretty sure that he meant what he said on the show.
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Old May 24 2014, 03:46 PM   #71
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Re: Game of Thrones 4.7 - "Mockingbird" - Rate and discuss

Beagleman wrote: View Post
Mr. Adventure wrote: View Post
I was actually a bit more disturbed by the Hound dispatching that old guy, he was dying but didn't really seem to be looking for a quicker out.
Really? I thought it showed a merciful side of the Hound and in his last seconds that guy seemed to appreciate it.
Same here. Especially in how he gave him the water first and said 'me too' almost tenderly when the old man wished it had been wine. It was a mercy killing.
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Old May 24 2014, 05:53 PM   #72
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Re: Game of Thrones 4.7 - "Mockingbird" - Rate and discuss

I took it as a mercy killing by the Hound as well but I still didn't sense the guy was looking for an early dispatch. Granted I only saw the scene once so maybe I'd feel different on review. "Maybe nothing is worse than this?" He asks for a drink not an assist.
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Old May 24 2014, 05:58 PM   #73
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Re: Game of Thrones 4.7 - "Mockingbird" - Rate and discuss

He was asking for it in a non-direct way. A quiet plea without being able to come out and ask for it. Hence the look of thanks in his eyes when the Hound ran him through, and the lack of Arya freaking out over it (unlike when he blundgeoned the previous farmer for his silver).
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Old May 24 2014, 06:00 PM   #74
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Re: Game of Thrones 4.7 - "Mockingbird" - Rate and discuss

I took it also that the suddenness of the Hound's blow was to save the poor guy from having to sit in dread anticipation of the strike.
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