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Future of Trek Discussion of future Trek projects.

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Old August 28 2014, 08:34 PM   #91
BillJ
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Re: Dull Humans?

BigJake wrote: View Post

Again your memory seems extremely selective and confused. About both series. It was very rare for TOS to show Kirk in a less than flattering light or portray him as wrong; his distinctive mark was his swashbuckling, almost swaggering command style, not his "flawed nature" (although he did have flaws). TNG as it progressed had episodes revolving around Picard being tempted into rewriting his own life history out of personal regret ("Tapestry"), experiencing being genuinely broken under torture ("Chain of Command," "I really did see five lights"), dealing with Trek's first attempt to gesture toward the psychological impact of a harrowing in-series adventure ("Family," following "Best of Both Worlds"), having to actually kill a future version of himself to break a destructive cycle of mistakes ("Time Squared"), being dragged into action as a peevish and ill-tempered old man in "All Good Things."
You still haven't shown where Picard chased the wrong course of action and then openly admitted he was wrong. Like Kirk in "Arena", "The Devil in the Dark" or "Errand of Mercy". Or where Picard has let his emotions cause him to risk his ship and crew like "The Conscience of the King" or "Obsession". Kirk reacted to situations in a manner that everyday people could understand then learned a clear lesson along the way that things weren't always what they appeared. TNG mostly lost that.

Picard was simply never wrong. He had no need of advisers. Which really killed any need he had for advice. Which killed much of the interpersonal chemistry.
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Old August 28 2014, 08:39 PM   #92
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Re: Dull Humans?

BillJ wrote: View Post
Picard was simply never wrong. He had no need of advisers.
Dude. This statement is egregiously stupid and again has simply nothing at all to do with what's in the screen product. Picard ran his ship on a consultation model with his officers, that was the source of all those meeting scenes that people are forever complaining about, and yes he routinely took and implemented their advice. You seem to simply have no idea what you're talking about.

You still haven't shown where Picard chased the wrong course of action and then openly admitted he was wrong.
Actually there are several direct examples right there in the post you quoted.

Like Kirk in "Arena", "The Devil in the Dark"
And this doesn't do much to convince me that your reading of TOS episodes is very competent, either. I just watched "The Devil in the Dark," for instance. In terms of learning about and re-evaluating an apparent threat, it has zilch to do with Kirk "admitting he was wrong." It's just a process problem-solving episode like many other stories of both Picard and Kirk. They're both people who change their minds when new facts come to light, because that's part of being competent.
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Old August 28 2014, 08:40 PM   #93
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Re: Dull Humans?

BigJake wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Picard was simply never wrong. He had no need of advisers.
Dude. This statement is egregiously stupid.
Go back and roll through the series and tell me if you think Picard ever really needed advisers. Seriously.
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Old August 28 2014, 08:45 PM   #94
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Re: Dull Humans?

BillJ wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
BillJ wrote: View Post
Picard was simply never wrong. He had no need of advisers.
Dude. This statement is egregiously stupid.
Go back and roll through the series and tell me if you think Picard ever really needed advisers.
Repeating a silly statement doesn't improve it. See above.
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Old August 28 2014, 08:56 PM   #95
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Re: Dull Humans?

So wouldn't Picard not needing advisers and being able to make his own head-strong decisions make him more Kirk-like, thus automatically becoming more exciting?
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Old August 28 2014, 09:24 PM   #96
wulfio
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Re: Dull Humans?

T'Girl wrote: View Post
BigJake wrote: View Post
Either Picard is the incarnation of arrogance and perfidy or ...

Picard was just as susceptible to imperfections as Kirk was.
Both are true, Picard was imperfect and I don't think anyone is under the false impression that he was perfect. His failing was his perspective that he and his society were perfect. That his was a utopian paradise and that unless you embraced (or had already obtain) his type of society he was better than you.

This is where you find the near universal observation that Picard was arrogance incarnate.

Kirk on the other hand was well aware that he was imperfect, and while he believed in his society, he didn't look down on people whose societies were different.

Now did the arrogance result in a loss of rating? Hard to say, but it was tiresome. It would have been (imho) an interesting improvement in Picard's character if he had gradually lost his hubris over the course of the series.

wulfio wrote: View Post
The prime directive is not heartless ...
That depends on the application, not simple on the existence of the directive.

I think the issue people have with the prime directive is the same thing that people don't understand about our environment
I would think that there would be absolutely no similarities in the slightest.

and it's up to us to control our environment.
It's up to us to control our surroundings to our best benefit.

so, case in point.

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Old August 30 2014, 08:23 AM   #97
T'Girl
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Re: Dull Humans?

Jedi_Master wrote: View Post
So wouldn't Picard not needing advisers and being able to make his own head-strong decisions make him more Kirk-like, thus automatically becoming more exciting?
Kirk had two main advisers, and incorporated their positions and opinions into his many decisions.

wulfio wrote: View Post
so, case in point.
I made four (at least) separate points, to which were you referring?

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Old August 30 2014, 07:07 PM   #98
wulfio
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Re: Dull Humans?

every one of them.

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Old August 30 2014, 08:47 PM   #99
T'Girl
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Re: Dull Humans?

Então estamos acabados aqui.

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Old August 30 2014, 09:21 PM   #100
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Re: Dull Humans?

THE SMILEYS!
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Old August 31 2014, 10:35 PM   #101
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Re: Dull Humans?

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