Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by ZapBrannigan, Mar 16, 2013.

  1. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Eh, I have no problem simply because of Post-Scarcity as an idea.

    People have no money because they have everything they could conceivably want, just by asking.
     
  2. TheGoodNews

    TheGoodNews Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Some people may have difficulty understanding or relating to it because of the environment they were raised in or interact with. What Gramsci called Cultural Hegemony. (But I should point out that futurist Alvin Toffler mentioned that at least 50% of our transactions are already moneyless.)

    Many of my postings in the past did indicate that in the past century there were tremendous attempts to create moneyless societies, the kibbutz movement and Spanish Revolution, which met with some degrees of success.

    "Money is hereby abolished and libertarian communism is proclaimed in this village.....The castle has been turned into a warehouse and supply centre. Everyone brings what they can and takes what the need. There is amazement and delight on the faces of women who help themselves to necessary commodities without paying." The Story of the Iron Column: Militant Anarchism in the Spanish Civil War by Abel Paz.

    So it's already possible.

    You did mention that human beings would be different in some way in a moneyless society. Outside observers did notice changes in human behavior in moneyless societies.

    "In the absence of private property, and of money, it is obvious that the profit motive does not operate in this society." Melford Spiro - Kibbutz: Venture in Utopia

    Spiro identified 4 incentives; personal, intrinsic, pride, prestige and a 5th incentive unique to the kibbutz.

    In Spain:

    "All around a heady atmosphere of excitement and optimism prevailed. Gerald Brennan said that 'visitors to Barcelona in the autumn of 1936 will never forget the moving and uplifting experience.' Foreigners who gave a tip had it returned politely with an explanation of why the practice corrupted both the giver and receiver." The Spanish Civil War by A. Beevor

    "...almost my first experience was receiving a lecture from an hotel manager for trying to tip a lift-boy." George Orwell - Homage to Catalonia page 5.

    "Many of the normal motives of civilized life-snobbishness, money-grubbing, fear of the boss, etc.-has simply ceased to exist. The ordinary class-division of society has disappeared to an extent that is almost unthinkable in the money-tainted air of England..." George Orwell - Homage to Catalonia page 104.

    "Yet so far as one could judge the people were contented and hopeful. There was no unemployment, and the price of living was still extremely low; you saw very few conspicuously destitute people, and no beggars except the gypsies. Above all, there was a belief in the revolution and the future, a feeling of having suddenly emerged into an era of equality and freedom. Human beings were trying to behave as human beings and not as cogs in the capitalist machine." George Orwell - Homage to Catalonia page 6.

    "As far as my purely personal preferences went I would have liked to join the Anarchists." George Orwell - Homage to Catalonia page 116.

    So it seems you're right in some way. That humans would behave differently in a moneyless environment. But I tend to think that you are confusing so-called "human nature" with human behavior.

    "I repeat: from the standpoint of social justice, money should be abolished, and libertarian communism is infinitely superior to capitalism..." Dr. Jose Maria Pueyo - The Anarchist Collectives by Sam Dolgoff
     
    Last edited: Jun 27, 2013
  3. Nightdiamond

    Nightdiamond Commodore Commodore

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    I tend to agree with a lot of this post. Maybe the idea of a society using no money is just foreign to a lot of people, even sci fi fans.

    Especially when they don't explain the particulars, like how were they able to pull that off without replicators.

    There is something very stiff about 23-24th century humans. They dont always come off as 3 dimensional (Opera is the main music, people drink mainly tea all the time, throwing plays set in the 16th century is THE entertainment for all ages.)

    One problem is that Trek doesn't dive right into it the subject and have those amusing conversations about it, like what you'd see in a Quentin Tarantino movie .

    All we got where small statements about it. I wonder why Trek was so stiff with going into the subject?

    Another question is, why do other cultures who have replicator technology insist on dealing with money when theoretically, they should easily be able to feed and clothe themselves, and create a strong industrial base?

    I definitely get what Trek is saying. A no money society is supposed to be one of our ultimate achievements.

    Life started off struggling and preying on one another, and now we can feed and clothe ourselves easily .

    Actually I have a harder time understanding resistance some people have to the idea, to the point where they claim the idea is communist or socialist or something.
     
  4. Belz...

    Belz... Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    And why would you do anything in such a society ? What's the incentive ?
     
  5. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Avoiding mind-numbing boredom comes to mind. Holo-potatoery isn't going to appeal to everyone.

    The conceit of the Federation isn't that there's no money, it's that they've somehow made work fun and fulfilling.

    No one wants to empty the bathroom recyclers or scrub the warp coils but plenty of people would love working on a starship in other areas.
     
  6. Belz...

    Belz... Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Trust me, if I didn't need money, I wouldn't work. I'd do what I do when I'm on vacation or during the week-ends. I might do what's considered "work" by personal interest, but I'm not going to put any effort into something I don't feel like doing.

    And who's going to do the real hard work ?

    I mean, it's a fun idea in a way, and if automation does all the work, it might actually be feasible to a degree, but I don't see humans bursting their asses for nothing in the forseeable future.

    Personally, I think money is probably the most significant invention in our history.
     
  7. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    The big reason Gene Roddenberry's cashless society is so hard to fathom for a lot of people is, to me, partially the fact so few people actually get to do what they want in RL. The American dream is mostly the dream of getting by.

    They're swamped with debt, bills, questions about how they're going to pay for medicine or education or their house. You have to run as fast as you can in the world to stay in place. It's hard to really wrap your head around having security if you've never had it.

    I have a different perspective on this since I was, at one point, actually rich. I'm not now (thanks economy), but it's interesting note that my family members who grew up with security still worked. None of us were Paris Hilton rich but we all took jobs, essentially to make sure we just weren't living off the family. I did dishes until I finished paying for my college and later ran my own business.

    I think the most utopian aspect of Roddenberry's vision isn't that everyone would be in the holodeck 24/7 (which might be the case for some) but that everyone can relax about where their next meal is coming from enough that they can enjoy themselves as well as reaching self-actualization. Study to be an engineer, scientist, or whatever.

    Which actually makes sense of Picard's craziness to an extent.
     
  8. Crazyewok

    Crazyewok Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Thats all well and good but who is going to work in waste extraction if they dont get paid cause no one is going to work there for free just to better themselfs :p
     
  9. robau

    robau Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Exocomps.
     
  10. Crazyewok

    Crazyewok Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well seeing as waste extraction if refered to as a actually job given as punishment or to slowly ensigns and enlisted it figure if Starfleet are useing people for that job then Civilians will need to do it for Civilian waste extractors.
     
  11. Belz...

    Belz... Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I'm not sure I follow. Again, in a moneyless society, what would you do with your day ? Why would you go work long hours at the hospital, or pick up garbage, or do some construction work, or fill out forms when you can spend your day at the beach, or in a museum, or watching tv ? I mean, if you can have anything you want anyway, why do any hard work unless you feel like it ?
     
  12. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    why do rich athletes, rich movie stars, CEOs, etc. work?

    by your logic, when someone makes just enough to be able to coast through life on their savings, they wouldn't work anymore.


    Since that's clearly NOT what happens, there must be other reasons for folks to work.
     
  13. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Self-actualization, public pressure, education. At the end of the day, a lot of people who are able to make do unemployed feel valueless and unsatisfied with their life. Their job provides them a sense of identity and self-worth.

    As stated, the leap is people WANT to work versus 100% pleasure. We've had examples of both in society.
     
  14. Crazyewok

    Crazyewok Vice Admiral Admiral

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  15. robau

    robau Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Not having fulfilling work each day really kind of sucks.
     
  16. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Does it have to be backbreaking labor? That's the real question for the 24th century.
     
  17. Crazyewok

    Crazyewok Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Well as being asigned to waste extraction is always being thrown about it seem like yes there is some.


    Plus you still have to have people working in offices and over really mundane crap jobs.
     
  18. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Even garbage men are often fulfilled by doing a central service.
     
  19. Crazyewok

    Crazyewok Vice Admiral Admiral

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    O come on how many do you really think would carry on if they did not get paid!
     
  20. Charles Phipps

    Charles Phipps Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    It's a question of how many would be unemployed and on the equivalent of Federation Welfare otherwise, which many could be.