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Trek Tech Pass me the quantum flux regulator, will you?

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Old August 27 2013, 04:01 AM   #16
Darkwing
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Re: Star Trek Maps (1980)

Mysterion wrote: View Post
Especially where the Klingon and romulan involvement with the Dominion War and Deep Space Nine is concerned. It's all the freakin' way on the other side of the Federation from where Star Charts shows them to be. Makes no sense, even if you try to rationialize it by saying that Klingon abd Romulan teritory "wraps around" Fed space "above" or "blow" the 2-D plane shown on the Star Charts maps. That would add a lot or territory to either of those entities, but yet every single place ever mentioned on-screen is shown all the freakin' way on the other side of the UFP from Bajor/DSN/The War.
Yeah, I'm thinking about putting Bajor/DS9/Cardassia around 10 o'clock on STM (between Vedala space and the former Slaver Empire), and a ways outside the treaty zone. Anyone know what date the UFP made contact with Bajor or Cardassia?
From the unused script for ST:V, IIRC, Chekov was losing at chess to a Betazoid, so it's reasonable they were known, if not members, in the 2280's. Anyone know anything like that for other TNG/DS9 races?
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Old August 27 2013, 04:16 AM   #17
Christopher
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Re: Star Trek Maps (1980)

Mysterion wrote: View Post
Especially where the Klingon and romulan involvement with the Dominion War and Deep Space Nine is concerned. It's all the freakin' way on the other side of the Federation from where Star Charts shows them to be. Makes no sense, even if you try to rationialize it by saying that Klingon abd Romulan teritory "wraps around" Fed space "above" or "blow" the 2-D plane shown on the Star Charts maps. That would add a lot or territory to either of those entities, but yet every single place ever mentioned on-screen is shown all the freakin' way on the other side of the UFP from Bajor/DSN/The War.
Except that STSC uses a "small Federation" theory (pretty much necessitated by later DS9, which established that Bajor, beyond the Federation border, was only days' travel from Earth). So the core of the UFP is only a couple of hundred light years across, meaning that "all the freakin' way" isn't really that far.

Besides, many nations throughout history have waged war very far from home. Places like Korea, Vietnam, and Iraq are all quite far from the US, oceans away, but Americans still fought extended wars there. So I don't see why it should be a problem that Klingons and Romulans are able to wage war at a considerable distance from their home territories.
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Old August 27 2013, 04:52 AM   #18
Darkwing
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Re: Star Trek Maps (1980)

/\ true. One of the issues I'm struggling with is the idea of the Romulans being so far from Terra, yet having a war with them in a warp 4 era. In the TM, that's nearly 5k parsecs! In FASA, 80pc, in Maps 240pc, in SC, 100 light years. If I go with the spherical treaty zone, and push them in to the 100ly point, I have to do the same with the Klingons in order to preserve the Triangle, and suddenly a lot of other real estate changes hands. The Orion worlds are now in the middle of Klingon space, which is problematic. I don't want to introduce wormholes too frequently, so maybe a chi factor warp superhighway lane through Edoan space to the RNZ?
That, of course, should rearrange colony locations in quadrant 3, so it gets thorny.
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Old August 27 2013, 05:06 AM   #19
Darkwing
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Re: Star Trek Maps (1980)

On the large vs. Small theory, I have a printout from some web page that discussed that, and came up with the compromise of a large claimed area, with a series of nodes of heavily colonized areas. SC would easily cover that, STM allows it, and the Organian treaty would indicate that the KNZ is merely acknowledged Klingon territory, whereas the treaty forces the UFP to compete with them for worlds in Q2 that would have been strictly the UFP's under the previous treaty delineating the exploration zone.
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Old August 28 2013, 04:20 AM   #20
Darkwing
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Re: Star Trek Maps (1980)

http://imageshack.us/a/img9/4403/uxy8.png
http://imageshack.us/a/img198/4140/acf.bmp
http://imageshack.us/a/img823/8100/u627.png
http://imageshack.us/a/img69/8489/svig.png
http://imageshack.us/a/img203/600/wcst.jpg
http://imageshack.us/a/img839/2264/mnn9.jpg

Here's some of what I was looking at. I have a better version of some of these, but the files were too big to upload.
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Old August 28 2013, 05:07 AM   #21
Darkwing
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Re: Star Trek Maps (1980)

http://img826.imageshack.us/img826/1075/3yt4.png
Here's the progress so far in cleaning up ST Maps, with an overlay from FASA's map
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Old August 30 2013, 12:58 PM   #22
Darkwing
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Re: Star Trek Maps (1980)

I finished the cleanup of Star Trek Maps. I'll post it when I get a chance - my phone can't handle it.
After I modify it to account for real star posits, I'll start adding in Fasa and novel material. Anyone got any suggestions as to where some of those worlds might be?
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Old September 1 2013, 12:59 AM   #23
Darkwing
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Re: Star Trek Maps (1980)

http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/62/n9zw.jpg/

here's the cleaned up image. In a few days,, after I settle in back at home, I'll start trying to tweak star locations and add in the other material.
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Old September 1 2013, 05:19 AM   #24
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Re: Star Trek Maps (1980)

Darkwing wrote: View Post
I'm trying to make a map that makes sense to me for use in my fan-fic and for the next time I run an rpg in the Trek verse. So I want to include certain novels, the Triangle, and some of the other non>anon material.
You could try making all three empires completely non-contiguous.

That "Federation space" is just a sphere about 20ly in diameter around a planet/system that the Federation has claimed and/or colonized and everything else is "interstellar space" that no one can legally (or feasibly) claim to control. If you also add a a certain interpretation to interstellar law that basically makes "unclaimed" space a kind of lawless free-for-all, then starships from opposing fleets can do whatever the hell they want in the interstellar regions without worrying about the political blowback; it becomes a "declared war" when they violate the territorial claims of those choice systems, which is why the Federation and the Klingons (and also the Romulans) only ever come to blows over planets that BOTH sides want to claim for themselves.

In that sense you could think of "Klingon territory" as generalization for "systems the Klingons own," and you can't really know exactly where this is without looking at the star chart for your local area. That would also explain why we have such a hard time understanding where the Klingon and Romulan empires actually are; they literally are EVERYWHERE, just like the Federation.

I assume the UFP has a core, actual border, and a treaty exploration zone that has nodes of colonies, trust worlds set aside for worlds not yet in space, and unexplored space.
Why hold that assumption at all? Even in maritime law, it's become convention that you can really only claim territory (waters, airspace, etc) that you can feasibly control. If you can't control it or exclude others from using it, your claim on that territory is meaningless.

When you consider how thinly distributed and far-flung Starfleet really is, it's simply infeasible for them to actually claim huge swaths of interstellar space and say "Mine!" despite the fact that they cannot realistically prevent alien ships from entering those regions (and in most cases, may not even realize those regions have been penetrated). If, OTOH, "Federation space" only exists in the area around "Federation Worlds" then it isn't a matter of distance or proximity; you may have two colony worlds with a million people on each, and somewhere in a 200ly gap between them, five unexplored systems that get a visit from a galaxy class starship. Suddenly we're not scratching our heads wondering "How did the Enterprise manage to answer a distress signal from that huge Federation colony when it's supposed to be exploring the uncharted regions of deep space?"
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Old September 1 2013, 08:32 AM   #25
Darkwing
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Re: Star Trek Maps (1980)

Several sources mention the "treaty exploration zone". Combined with the Prime Directive (Reeves-Stevens') idea of trust worlds, I'm thinking the early UFP claimed a huge swath of space to set aside those trust worlds. The idea is that, when a world gets into space, worlds are set aside for them to colonize. In the novel, Talin IV had 48 worlds in a 25 parsec radius set aside for them. As mentioned above, the Organian treaty kinda supersedes that in at least quadrant 2, since the Klingons and UFP have to show who can develop a world better.
They were probably unduly optimistic when they founded the UFP, and nationalistic pride forbids them admitting later they couldn't actually maintain their claim, so there's a lot of nominally federation space that's not really controlled.
Keep the ideas coming.
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Old September 1 2013, 05:00 PM   #26
Crazy Eddie
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Re: Star Trek Maps (1980)

Darkwing wrote: View Post
Several sources mention the "treaty exploration zone". Combined with the Prime Directive (Reeves-Stevens') idea of trust worlds, I'm thinking the early UFP claimed a huge swath of space to set aside those trust worlds. The idea is that, when a world gets into space, worlds are set aside for them to colonize. In the novel, Talin IV had 48 worlds in a 25 parsec radius set aside for them. As mentioned above, the Organian treaty kinda supersedes that in at least quadrant 2, since the Klingons and UFP have to show who can develop a world better.
They were probably unduly optimistic when they founded the UFP, and nationalistic pride forbids them admitting later they couldn't actually maintain their claim, so there's a lot of nominally federation space that's not really controlled.
Keep the ideas coming.
That wouldn't contradict: the "treaty exploration zone" might simply be a collection of habitable systems in a particular region that are set aside for colonization efforts by corporations, institutions and private citizens/homesteaders. The space BETWEEN those systems may indeed remain unclaimed, much like the systems themselves could easily exist in obscure clusters between otherwise fully-developed worlds or even scattered here and there where they happened to have been discovered.

That might give you a conception for why the Romulans and Klingons keep showing up in such weird places. Federation "claimed" worlds might be scattered here and there in relatively close proximity to some worlds claimed by the Klingons and Romulans. Some of those races may think to themselves that being flanked by Federation "colonies" is a strategic liability and do something sneaky or violent to discourage colonists from settling those worlds.

And since I know it's coming, I'll bring it up early: a "borderless" Federation doesn't really present much of a problem from a defense standpoint since everyone IN the Federation lives in planetary systems anyway. You don't need to defend a vast 5000ly border around your territory; if you're worried about foreign invasion, you rely on your intelligence services to tell you if the bad guys are up to something, and if they ARE planning some trouble, you figure out what the target is and position your fleet to intercept them. An attempted Klingon invasion of Earth, for example, wouldn't be met at the Klingon-Federation border, but would probably be ambushed by a Federation task force near Tau Ceti or something. Even this wouldn't start a war, because the Klingons never actually violated Federation territory and Starfleet didn't violate theirs, and the high council would simply write it off as "A spirited brawl between warriors. What fun!"
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Old September 9 2013, 09:25 PM   #27
publiusr
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Re: Star Trek Maps (1980)

Well, slanted regions may have differnt locations on difference slices of plan views of the galaxy, seen north galactic core "down."
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Old September 12 2013, 10:40 PM   #28
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Re: Star Trek Maps (1980)

Odd. I never noticed that STM used Jien's numbers before...
Interesting work BTW
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Old September 13 2013, 03:57 AM   #29
Darkwing
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Re: Star Trek Maps (1980)

Thanks! Got any suggestions?
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