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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Star Trek Movies > Star Trek Movies XI+

Star Trek Movies XI+ Discuss J.J. Abrams' rebooted Star Trek here.

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Old December 19 2013, 10:25 PM   #106
Shaka Zulu
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Re: STiD, Kirk and the Abrams Team

BigKrampus wrote: View Post
If there was actually anyone who wanted "clones" of any of the old characters instead of just wanting good movies, I've certainly never observed them in the wild; they must have been a small cohort indeed. Watching you rant and rage at what appear to be the voices in your head is amusing, but AFAICS you still have absolutely no idea at all why other people say anything or believe anything. (Dr. Trull's speculations on what "audiences expect" or "audiences demand" are not much better.)
The voices in my head aren't anywhere numerous as the voices in yours; please stop trying to guess the state of my mental health due to a supposition I made about fandom that anybody else would probably have also made (and may have done so already.) If you disagree with me and what I said, fine, but now you're heading into personal insults.
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Old December 19 2013, 10:35 PM   #107
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Re: STiD, Kirk and the Abrams Team

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
please stop trying to guess the state of my mental health due to a supposition I made about fandom that anybody else would probably have also made. . .
"Anybody else" does not routinely and with maximum shrillness try to dismiss large swathes of fandom as nutcases via rather ironically nutty-sounding "suppositions" about their motives. You do. FWIW I am not really speculating on the state of your mental health, I'm sure you're as sane as any of us; I'm just pointing out how make yourself appear by constantly doing this.

Let me give you a bit more specific example:

Saying that Jar-Jar was racist when the guy who was the voice and the body was a black man
... actually, it's fallacious to say a character conception isn't racist because the guy playing it was black. It doesn't work that way. Minstrelsy and blackface were likewise produced by black entertainers like Bert Williams; that has nothing to do with whether the basic dynamic was racist, as black entertainers have been putting food on the table by selling black caricatures to whites for a long time. Jar Jar rubbed a lot of people the wrong way by being arguably just another iteration of that wrapped up in digital effects.

and saying the the Nemoidians were racist when the accent wasn't meant to be Japanese (or any other Asian race is proof of that apeshitness in the fans who hated it
The original Nemoidians of Phantom Menace were instantly recognizable to any number of critics, fans or not, as digitally-costumed Fu Manchu stereotypes out of the 1930s and 40s. The criticism doesn't come out of nowhere; if you're familiar with film and comic books from that era, the parallel is extremely obvious, whether or not it was "intended". And note that this criticism actually seemed to hit its mark: Lucas tacked away from the Fu Manchu accents for most of the Nemoidians, save those who'd already been established, in subsequent films.

For the reasons I've just outlined, trying to dismiss the above points as "apeshitness" looks like exactly the kind of thoughtless, kneejerk reaction you claim to be criticizing.
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Old December 19 2013, 11:28 PM   #108
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Re: STiD, Kirk and the Abrams Team

The difference between ROTJ, the admittedly last-place of the OT, and the entirety of the PT is that ROTJ makes sense, has some sense of narrative and functions as a film, rather than (simply) a merchandising vehicle.

Move your sights to Empire and all bets are off. Empire is a fantastic film, full stop. It's full of witty dialogue, character intrigue, relatable romance and genuine performances. You can't say that about any of the PT.

They're just bad movies: they take talented actors and strip them of all their talent. We get Ewan McGregor and Samuel L. Jackson reduced to flat line-readings. The action is nonsensical and the persistent green-screen sets rob the films of the immediacy and tactileness that made the world of Star Wars so engaging. The scripts are beyond dumb and the direction is dull and lifeless.

But the kids love em. And that's great. Kids loved the OT too. Difference is, so did their parents.
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Old December 20 2013, 02:18 AM   #109
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Re: STiD, Kirk and the Abrams Team

BillJ wrote: View Post
It wasn't six-year old's who were buying tickets to the prequel trilogy.
Of course, it's the parents who buy those tickets. One of my coworkers went to see THE PHANTOM MENACE when it came out last year in 3D, because his son wanted to see it, even though the father didn't think it was any good.
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Old December 20 2013, 02:24 AM   #110
M'Sharak
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Re: STiD, Kirk and the Abrams Team

Shaka Zulu wrote: View Post
BigKrampus wrote: View Post
If there was actually anyone who wanted "clones" of any of the old characters instead of just wanting good movies, I've certainly never observed them in the wild; they must have been a small cohort indeed. Watching you rant and rage at what appear to be the voices in your head is amusing, but AFAICS you still have absolutely no idea at all why other people say anything or believe anything. (Dr. Trull's speculations on what "audiences expect" or "audiences demand" are not much better.)
The voices in my head aren't anywhere numerous as the voices in yours; please stop trying to guess the state of my mental health due to...
Everyone can stop those right now.

If you (general "you") have a valid point to make, it ought to be possible to do so without speculations, suppositions, insinuations, etc. concerning the mental state of any other fans or fan groups. Just don't do that.
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Old December 20 2013, 05:49 PM   #111
Sindatur
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Re: STiD, Kirk and the Abrams Team

MakeshiftPython wrote: View Post
Bullshit. The prequels aren't just criticized because it's the popular thing to do, they're also criticized for being subpar. I don't think they're the worst things to ever come out of cinema, but they are certainly not that good. Plenty of bad films made it big at the box office despite not being good, such as TRANSFORMERS: REVENGE OF THE FALLEN.
But, on the other hand, that opinion is mostly from folks who grew up on The Original Trilogy (Or are heavily involved in Star Wars Fandom, rather than casual Star Wars Fans). There's a whole bunch of younger folks who grew up on The Prequel Trilogy and/or don't have the Nostalgia of growing up on The Original Trilogy when it was brand new, that love the Prequel films. Then of course, now we have kids growing up on the Clone Wars cartoons that love The Prequel Trilogy as well.

I grew up on The Original Trilogy, and Jar Jar annoys me, and, The Pod Race seems to go on for hours, but, other than those things and the awkwardly directed Romance, I mostly get enjoyment out of The Prequels.
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Old December 21 2013, 01:12 AM   #112
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Re: STiD, Kirk and the Abrams Team

Sindatur wrote: View Post
But, on the other hand, that opinion is mostly from folks who grew up on The Original Trilogy (Or are heavily involved in Star Wars Fandom, rather than casual Star Wars Fans).
In point of fact, TPM was widely panned both inside and outside fandom both at the time of its initial release and on the screening of the 3D version.
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Old December 21 2013, 02:05 AM   #113
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Re: STiD, Kirk and the Abrams Team

The Baby Stig wrote: View Post
Kids loved the OT too. Difference is, so did their parents.
Unless their parents were certain professional film critics.
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Old December 26 2013, 09:18 AM   #114
Shaka Zulu
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Re: STiD, Kirk and the Abrams Team

I love this one a lot:

Thank you so much for putting into words what has been on my mind since the release of TWOK. I feel that fandom is more than spoiled. We are blind? blind to what STAR TREK really is. As Harlan Ellison once pointed out, we have taken a form of entertainment, a TV show, and made it more important than it was ever intended to be. We have raised it to the level or perfection. Each one of us has put so much of ourselves into our view of the STAR TREK universe that anything that does not agree with the view is immediately dismissed as bad Trek. Poor Gene Roddenberry, in producing ST:TMP he had to feed the needs of thousands of fans who had been dreaming and fantasizing their own individual STAR TREK universes for ten years. There was no way he could have pleased us all. Harve Bennett was in no better a position than Roddenberry. Bad press plagued him from the start. Now that TWOK is out some fans are upset because it did not live up to their own interpretations of STAR TREK. They accuse it of being a cheap movie made with no other purpose than to make a quick buck. Yes, TWOK was made to make money, so was ST:TMP, and so was the original STAR TREK series. We must keep in mind that that is all STAR TREK is, a form of entertainment, is long as we keep this in mind, and stop making more out of it than it really is, we will enjoy TWOK and the movies that will follow it.... I have been so disappointed at the back-biting and the narrow-mindedness of most fans I see in INTERSTAT. Fandom as a whole seems to have lost the fun and the friendliness I enjoyed so much when I was active in it five years ago. It seems to have lost the qualities that it loves so much in the series. If we cannot be open-minded to one another, how can we expect a future seen in STAR TREK? How can we criticize TWOK for its lack of ideology, when we are so cruel to each other? I am thankful to you for allowing me to express my opinion. INTERSTAT is a very important zine for just that reason.
This only proves the old saying 'The more things change, the more they stay the same.'
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Old December 29 2013, 08:38 AM   #115
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Re: STiD, Kirk and the Abrams Team

It's curious. I find Reddit's Trek sub to be a LOT more positive about the shows and other movies than these forums, but for Into Darkness it seems to be reversed - it is generally a lot more positive here and negative there.
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