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Old July 12 2013, 10:04 PM   #16
J.T.B.
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Re: Change of insignia and pennant between TOS and TMP/TWOK

Mario de Monti wrote: View Post
In TMP we don´t see a starship other than the Enterprise, but station personnel still wear their own insignia.
True, but Kirk also wears the arrowhead before he's been assigned to Enterprise, as do spacedock personnel.

Metryq wrote: View Post
I thought it was weird that other crews wore different insignia in TOS. Kinda goes against the grain of it being a uniform standard.
It's a fairly long-standing tradition in militaries for personnel of different units or branches to wear different uniform trim, badges, patches etc. It contributes to morale and can be useful if people from multiple units are working together.

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
USS Lexington insignia: commemorates achievements of Lexington (under Bob Wesley?), is introduced for Starfleet uniforms at the time of "The Menagerie". USS Lexington is Starfleet's flagship at the time of "The Ultimate Computer" (notice Wesley's "big" command chair in contrast to chairs aboard Enterprise, Exeter and Defiant.
It's pretty unlikely that Commodore Wesley is in command of all of Starfleet, seat back notwithstanding, as we see higher-ranking admirals elsewhere in TOS.

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
Yes. Matt Decker and Ron Tracey both had the command star in their insignias and when we saw the Defiant uniforms on Enterprise, their insignia had the respective symbols within.
I think Decker's badge may have been ret-conned to have a star in some publications, but in the episode it doesn't look like there's one there.

T'Girl wrote: View Post
The argument can be made that ALL Starfleet personel assigned to duty aboard a starship have the delta insignia, up through the rank of captain, and (during TOS) it was only those ranking fleet captain and above (and some members of their personal staff) who possessed a different insignia.
But that wouldn't explain why Tracey and Kirk wore different badges.
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Old July 12 2013, 11:02 PM   #17
Robert Comsol
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Re: Change of insignia and pennant between TOS and TMP/TWOK

J.T.B. wrote: View Post
It's pretty unlikely that Commodore Wesley is in command of all of Starfleet, seat back notwithstanding, as we see higher-ranking admirals elsewhere in TOS.
I was not aware that he commander of a flagship is automatically in command of all of Starfleet. However, Commodore Wesley is in command of one third of all the ships like the Enterprise in "The Ultimate Computer".

And usually admirals do not command a flagship, they merely use it as a base of operations identified by their "flag" while leaving the operation of the vessel to its commander-in-chief.

And last but not least, the rank of commodore is a "flag" officer's rank. The only other commodore in TOS I'm aware of who had actually served as / was meant to be the commander of a starship next to Wesley was Stone.

This may give the term "flagship" a new meaning by the 23rd Century (commanded by a "flag" officer).

Bob
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Old July 12 2013, 11:12 PM   #18
J.T.B.
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Re: Change of insignia and pennant between TOS and TMP/TWOK

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
J.T.B. wrote: View Post
It's pretty unlikely that Commodore Wesley is in command of all of Starfleet, seat back notwithstanding, as we see higher-ranking admirals elsewhere in TOS.
I was not aware that he commander of a flagship is automatically in command of all of Starfleet. However, Commodore Wesley is in command of one third of all the ships like the Enterprise in "The Ultimate Computer".
A flag officer is in charge of whatever vessels are assigned to his/her command. Saying that Lexington is "Starfleet's flagship" implies that the flag officer aboard her has command of everything that falls under "Starfleet."
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Old July 15 2013, 08:41 AM   #19
Mario de Monti
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Re: Change of insignia and pennant between TOS and TMP/TWOK

Well that certainly was a lot if input to digest, especially when including the previous Starfleet Command Insignia thread, that I somehow managed to overlook (thanks for the link, Bob). Next time I´ll better not post something like that, before being absent from the TrekBBS for a whole weekend

After going through everything you all said it really seems there is no definitive answer ... like with so many things we are discussing here. I guess CrazyMatt´s post #102 in the above thread pretty much sums up what happened production-wise.

As to the in-universe explanations presented, they all seem to suffer from one flaw or other ... which makes me feel a little better, for not coming up with a good one myself

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
I shamelessly can't help to exploit the occasion to present my theory in a nutshell, i.e. that the pennants and insignia do commemorate the achievements of a previous starship and its crew:

TOS hull pennant: commemorates achievement of a starship (USS Republic?) whose uniform insignia has been adopted as hull pennant, Starfleet uniform insignia (pre-Pike) and eventually became the arrowhead Starfleet insignia seen as a wall decoration in Starfleet's (admiral) TOS offices.

USS Enterprise insignia: commemorates achievements of Enterprise under Captain Robert April, became Starfleet uniform insignia (harem scene in "The Cage"!) and remained Starfleet uniform insignia until "Court-Martial" and partially "The Menagerie" (receptionist in Mendez' office!)

USS Lexington insignia:
commemorates achievements of Lexington (under Bob Wesley?), is introduced for Starfleet uniforms at the time of "The Menagerie". USS Lexington is Starfleet's flagship at the time of "The Ultimate Computer" (notice Wesley's "big" command chair in contrast to chairs aboard Enterprise, Exeter and Defiant. Mirror Universe Enterprise could be flagship in this alternate reality).

TMP insignia and hull pennant: now commemorates the achievements of two starships, one of those is obviously the Enterprise and another one that has gone unmentioned but appears to have a circle as an insignia. This combined insignia has become the new pennant for starships and all Starfleet uniforms (e.g. Starfleet Admiral Kirk, Commander Sonak).

TWOK insignia:
now commemorates the achievements of the Enterprise under Captain Spock and another (unmentioned) starship whose original, individual (TOS) insignia is now also reflected.
While I really don´t like this idea of pennants and insignia being merely chosen to commemorate past achievements, I have to admit this theory fits most of the facts, while leaving the least number of questions, as compared to other explanations. One problem remains, however (as CorporalCaptain pointed out in his post #94 of said thread): Once Starfleet had decided on the Enterprise´s delta insignia to be exclusively used as both the insignia on all uniforms and as hull pennant on all starships, there is no more change possible! No matter which ship would distinguish itself it would always wear the delta shape, so no matter which one Starfleet chose to honor and commemorate, they´d still be "stuck" with the same insignia.


While writing this, I just had an alternative idea (if this was mentioned elsewhere before, I apologize for calling it "my" idea): What if there was some kind of poll going on in Starfleet? You know, different designs for insignia tried out on different ships/bases, without necessarily a strict rule behind who´s wearing which. Then, after a certain time or "test phase" all Starfleet personnel could cast their votes as to which design(s) they prefer to be the future one. After all, Starfleet is foremost an organization of exploration, not a military one (I know, many would like to have it differently ). So why couldn´t they have a "democratic" approach to such things?

Just my 2 cents

Mario
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Old July 15 2013, 09:54 AM   #20
Robert Comsol
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Re: Change of insignia and pennant between TOS and TMP/TWOK

@ Mario de Monti

Yes, the new insignia we started to see from TWOK on, is difficult to rationalize (especially given the design similarity between the TMP insignia and the one from TNG, which rather seems to be an updated variation of the TMP version. Probably a Roddenberry stamp / trademark ).

I'm not sure about a democratic poll. There'll be always somebody complaining their choice wasn't considered.

Alternately and maybe, the circle (TMP) or the bar (TWOK) behind the Delta might represent / symbolize a scientific or technical achievement that had a major impact on the UFP?

Bob
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Old July 15 2013, 11:28 AM   #21
Mario de Monti
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Re: Change of insignia and pennant between TOS and TMP/TWOK

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
Alternately and maybe, the circle (TMP) or the bar (TWOK) behind the Delta might represent / symbolize a scientific or technical achievement that had a major impact on the UFP?
I had similar thoughts But I thought a step further, that not just the "background" but the different insignia themselves stood for some "abstract" ideas, ideals or achievements among which Starfleet ultimately decided to exclusively use the delta shape ... whatever it stands for.
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Old July 15 2013, 02:54 PM   #22
J.T.B.
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Re: Change of insignia and pennant between TOS and TMP/TWOK

How about this: Starfleet at the time was divided into broad functional commands, say Exploration Command, Patrol Command, and Defense Command, indicated by the Enterprise, Constellation and Exeter badges (not necessarily respectively). Because the fleet was stretched thin, starships did not always operate in their assigned command, but could be attached/detached to another as needed. Because of this muddying of the command divisions, Starfleet was eventually reorganized so there was only one big operational command, and one insignia, the arrowhead, was adopted for all and the other two dropped.
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Old July 15 2013, 03:14 PM   #23
Mario de Monti
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Re: Change of insignia and pennant between TOS and TMP/TWOK

J.T.B. wrote: View Post
How about this: Starfleet at the time was divided into broad functional commands, say Exploration Command, Patrol Command, and Defense Command, indicated by the Enterprise, Constellation and Exeter badges (not necessarily respectively). Because the fleet was stretched thin, starships did not always operate in their assigned command, but could be attached/detached to another as needed. Because of this muddying of the command divisions, Starfleet was eventually reorganized so there was only one big operational command, and one insignia, the arrowhead, was adopted for all and the other two dropped.
Hmm ... while I quite like the idea of different fleet branches having different insignia, it does not explain, why the pennant on the exterior of the ships also changed (it was different from the Enterprise crew´s delta insignia).

Also, from what we get in TOS Starfleet seems to have a rather limited number of starships. Would dividing those into sub-commands/branches really be necessary or make sense?
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Old July 15 2013, 03:49 PM   #24
The Wormhole
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Re: Change of insignia and pennant between TOS and TMP/TWOK

J.T.B. wrote: View Post
How about this: Starfleet at the time was divided into broad functional commands, say Exploration Command, Patrol Command, and Defense Command, indicated by the Enterprise, Constellation and Exeter badges (not necessarily respectively). Because the fleet was stretched thin, starships did not always operate in their assigned command, but could be attached/detached to another as needed. Because of this muddying of the command divisions, Starfleet was eventually reorganized so there was only one big operational command, and one insignia, the arrowhead, was adopted for all and the other two dropped.
The novels are kind of doing something similar to this. Specifically, the new Enterprise Rise of the Federation series has the various insignia related to the services of the other Federation member worlds. For example, the arrowhead belongs to UESPA, the insignia worn by Commodore Decker and the Constellation's crew is from the Andorian Guard and so on. Here's a diagram explaining things.
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Old July 15 2013, 04:10 PM   #25
J.T.B.
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Re: Change of insignia and pennant between TOS and TMP/TWOK

Mario de Monti wrote: View Post
Hmm ... while I quite like the idea of different fleet branches having different insignia, it does not explain, why the pennant on the exterior of the ships also changed (it was different from the Enterprise crew´s delta insignia).
No, it wouldn't account for that. I've always thought it was unfortunate that they changed the pennant.

Also, from what we get in TOS Starfleet seems to have a rather limited number of starships. Would dividing those into sub-commands/branches really be necessary or make sense?
Good point; presumably the bulk of each command would be smaller vessels with the "Starship Class" taking on the big or important assignments as needed.
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Old July 15 2013, 04:29 PM   #26
Robert Comsol
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Re: Change of insignia and pennant between TOS and TMP/TWOK

The Wormhole wrote: View Post
For example, the arrowhead belongs to UESPA...
Sorry, but this is one thing I'm unable to believe, i.e. that UESPA had two different insignias at the same time.

United Earth Space Probe Agency (TOS) obviously looked like this at a time where other uniforms already had the delta insignia.

Bob
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Old July 15 2013, 06:22 PM   #27
T'Girl
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Re: Change of insignia and pennant between TOS and TMP/TWOK

J.T.B. wrote: View Post
T'Girl wrote: View Post
... only those ranking fleet captain and above ...
But that wouldn't explain why Tracey and Kirk wore different badges.
If Tracy were a "fleet captain" it would explain the difference.

Both Pike and Garth were fleet captains.

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Old July 15 2013, 06:36 PM   #28
J.T.B.
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Re: Change of insignia and pennant between TOS and TMP/TWOK

T'Girl wrote: View Post
But that wouldn't explain why Tracey and Kirk wore different badges.
If Tracy were a "fleet captain" it would explain the difference.

Both Pike and Garth were fleet captains.
But there's no reason to think Tracey was. He's never referred to as such and wears the same rank insignia as "plain old captain" Kirk.
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