not me. i've said all along that voyager is way better, but had a great disadvantage by starting later in an increasingly crowded market. if sykonee weren't so biased in favour of ds9, voy would lead by 3:1. he's a bit obsessed with the doc's mobile emitter - well, back in season 2 janeway had emitters installed all over the ship, so he doesn't need the mobile thing to get around in the vessel. don't recall an episode where the emitters were removed. In The Flesh is the crap of season 5 indeed, but shouldn't sykonee also have pointed out that in the otherwise outstanding Treachery, Faith, And The Great River a puny shuttle downed a dominion warship of the exactly same sort that killed a mighty galaxy-class starship?
That's such a recurring matter in Deep Space Nine that pointing it out against a single episode is almost unfair. Besides, I'd say damning what could have been a terrific antagonistic race like Species 8472 to such a low-key conclusion is a far greater sin than the Dominion thing.
Ah, Treachery, Faith and the Great River, one of the season 7 classics. I particularly like the desk scene. In the Flesh... no. Just, no. B5 is winding down at this point. It's unusual to watch because they finished the main arcs with The Fall of Centauri Prime and the final four episodes pretty much act as a coda. It's very unusual as most shows save their big action material for the finale, so B5 was a refreshing change. The only other show I can think of ending that way was The West Wing. Firstly, they never got those emitters to work. Secondly, every time Dr Shmully is seen outside sickbay, he has the mobile emitter on, and if the emitter begins to fail (as in One) he has to rush back to Sickbay to be safe. Thirdly, even if that was the case, he still uses the emitter to leave Voyager. I wont ruin Sykonee's enjoyment by telling him whether the emitter is recovered, but I suspect he can guess the answer. That Dominion ship rammed the Odyssey in the volatile deflector array and also did substantial damage to the starboard nacelle. If the Dominion ship in TF&TGR had rammed the runabout, it would have exploded too.
I know I'm late, and this has probably been brought up, but the episode did give us the Delta Flyer. That amounts to something.
Yes, I rather like the way they closed out the show with these episodes. Treachery, Faith and the Great River is a definite step up over the earlier episodes of Season 7. The A-plot was a great idea with some good thematic content and nice arc significance. The B-plot was good too. I think Thompson and Weddle really raised their game with this one, perhaps a foretaste of the excellent work they went on to do on Battlestar Galactica. The Wheel of Fire is another good episode. I liked how Garibaldi's story develops here and I think Lochley was well used. Lyta's arc also moves along very nicely (she's so cool now, Byron was clearly holding her back!) and I appreciate the moral ambiguity of it. Overall, I'll just about give DS9 the win here, since this episode stands out as very distinctive, whereas I get a little confused about which scenes are in The Wheel of Fire and which are in Objects in Motion .
Week 7: (Ending 11.15.98) DS9 - Once More Unto The Breach (Airdate 11.11.98) VOY - Once Upon A Time (Airdate 11.11.98) B5 - Objects In Motion (Airdate 11.11.98) And here we have proof that DS9 and VOY weren't paying attention to each other in the slightest. No WAY they'd both air an episode where their titles share the same first word on purpose, right? Anyhow, it's been a while since I got around to doing this Week. I can't claim any excuse other than pure apathy. I know I'm trying to view these as if it's when they first aired, but I've seen all of these episodes before and I just wasn't in a rush to watch 'em again. Well, the B5 one perhaps, but Objects... works better when you're watching the series one episode after the other - as a separate entity, it's kind of drab. Yeah, nice sentiments regarding Garibaldi's Goodbye, but very little happens here. Yes, including the Assassination Plot: it's over within half the episode, and such a plot has become an overused cliche in B5 now. Still, it's little character touches that at least make it watchable when you DO throw it on. Like DS9. 'Cause really, were we clamoring for another Klingon-centric episode? Can't say I was, and though it mostly focuses on Kor and Martok, the basic plot is rather pedestrian. Yet, little character touches along the way make it watchable, if not the first thing you're going to WANT to watch when you reach for your DVDs again. VOY's just all kinds of silly. Amazingly enough, this is the first Neelix Episode in a very long time that has stumbled. Yeah, he's an annoying idiot as a side character, but whenever he gets the spotlight, he becomes quite interesting. Not here though. His "I'm her Godfather, so I is rights, OKAY!?" attitude towards Naomi gets grating. And frankly, I never felt much suspense over the rescue operation - this is VOY, where major changes like offing Wildman just won't do (on the other hand, Doc still seems to be without his Mobile Emitter...). Of course, this isn't that kind of episode - the happy ending can be seen a mile away. It's one of those fluffy hours of TV that can leave a sentimental smile on your face, but doesn't leave an impression in the long run. Except those Holonovel characters. THEY WILL HAUNT YOUR DREAMS FOREVER!!! Giving B5 the nod this week. Garibaldi's Goodbye trumps everything else for me. With luck, next week will be more interesting. Weekly Winner B5 Next: DS9 - The Siege Of AR-558 VOY - Timeless B5 - Objects At Rest & River Of Souls
it will. timeless is the favourite episode of many voyager fans, but i know that the siege of ar whatever is well liked by niners. for reasons yet to be disclosed, so i hope you will do.
"Timeless" and "The Siege of AR-558" are both great episodes. I dislike "Objects at Rest" for what it does to a certain character, but I don't outright hate it.
Timeless is an incredible construction. I love 'Siege' but it has QUITE a few cliches in it and feels a bit heartless at times. Timeless is all heart. It's got to be the winner.
Timeless is good, don't get me wrong. But I think that these two contrasting episodes are a microcosm for the difference between DS9 and Voyager. Timeless is a great story with a reset button at the end. (More or less.) Siege of AR-558 is a great story without a reset button - it's a raw emotional story that has lasting consequences, for one character in particular.
I like Objects at Motion a lot. After all these years it's quite emotional watching these people move on. Cool to see Number One again as well. Once More unto the Breach is nice enough, but it's basically Soldiers of the Empire Part 3, so it's hard to get that excited. At least Kor finally gets a decent episode, though.
Wow, "Timeless" versus "The Siege of AR-558" versus "Objects at Rest"? This is the kind of stuff I'd pay for premium cable to see.
Week 8: (Ending 11.22.98) B5 - The River Of Souls (Airdate 11.17.98) DS9 - The Siege Of AR-558 (Airdate 11.18.98) VOY - Timeless (Airdate 11.18.98) B5 - Objects At Rest (Airdate 11.18.98) Actually, there's a bunch of conflicting dates with that B5 tele-movie, some putting it as early as Nov. 8. I'm going with the Ep. Guide website, which I've been using for all of the B5 airdates ...which puts it one day before everything else this week. How odd. But not as odd as the fact River Of Souls is actually set six months after Objects At Rest is supposed to take place. Thus, just last week we watch Garibaldi make a heartfelt exit, only to turn up here, now sportin' a beard. Can you imagine if you somehow missed the bit of exposition establishing when this movie takes place? Your mind would blow upeth! As for the movie itself, it's actually pretty good. While there's undoubtedly some out there that weren't all that keen on seeing the Soul Hunters again (hi, Godben!), it doesn't get too bogged down in the 'whats' and 'hows' regarding the nature of 'souls' here; rather, it's an examination of whether what the Soul Hunters are doing is actually any good. They may have a noble intent, but their practices definitely leave a lot to be desired. It's a good sci-fi quandary, and handled quite nicely here. Shame the climax of this movie is kind of drab, and even a bit cliche. Plus, the whole holo-brothel thing seems like a blatant rip on Trek's own holodecks; after all, the first thing anyone's gonna use such technology for is pr0n. Overall, it's a stronger outing than B5's regular episode for the week. As has been the case with the past few weeks, it doesn't seem like much really happens here. Actually, that's far from the case, as all these people moving on is a big deal when you think about it; however, everyone is leaving the station quietly and without much fanfare (well, except G'Kar), which is probably how it would be in real life. It's not like they're forever disappearing - just simply moving on with their lives. And because these are such subtle departures, there's stronger emotional resonance to these scenes, especially so if you've been watching the show since the beginning - it gives you a chance to reflect on all the events these people went through during their time on B5 ...even making you want to start watching the series all over again! Oh, and there's some tagged on thing involving Lennier making a Bad Decision. While I don't necessarily see it as character assassination, the trouble with him running off like that is there's been no proper build-up to him making such a decision in the first place. Yeah, there's been tension between him and Sheriden for most of this season, but nothing to hint he'd turn on him just like that. It's a scene that comes far too out of the blue and nearly derails what has been an otherwise pleasant little episode. Ah well. Lennier runs off, then somehow gets caught in a spatial rift while in hyperspace. As he's flung into a parallel universe, he's amazingly turned into a human and suddenly working on hacking into a relay station built by something called The Dominion, but currently held by a group known as The Federation, of which each are at war against the other. Quickly, he becomes fluent in technobabble and blends right in with the rest of the officers stationed there. He should have stayed on the White Star though, as he's killed while holding the relay station against an attack. All that Ranger training just wasn't enough to prepare him for this bizarre turn of events. As for all the other people at this station, they're really put through their paces. This is some gritty stuff, at least for Trek. The last thing DS9 wants to do is glamorize war, which it was a bit in danger of doing so with so many gosh-darn gee-whiz amazing SFX space-battles thus far. Time to get in the dirt and put a proper face to all these people that are dying in the war effort. This is one of those rare episodes where you feel every loss of life, where no death is glamorized nor easily dismissed. Death comes quickly, unexpected, and inexplicably senselessly. Couple that with a rare emotional theme in the score, and yes, you do have a winner here folks, beating out both B5 efforts. What about VOY then? Well, it looks like Doc has his Mobile Emitter back with no explanation so that automatically knocks 10 points off this episode. Oh, wait, I'm not actually giving scores here. Never mind then. Guess I'll just assume it was a time paradox thing. Lord knows this episode's got a lot of 'em. Still, Timeless comes through in the raw emotion department, and surprisingly courtesy of Harry Kim! To be honest, given this episode's reputation, I was kind of perplexed for a while how it had gained it. Yeah, seeing a frozen-over Voyager was neat to see, and the alternate future involving Kim and Chakotay as the lone survivors was all kinds of fascinating to me - I could seriously imagine a spin-off mini-series involving them being full of great story potential (hmm... maybe I should brave the realms of VOY fanfiction to find some). But nay, this is mostly about Harry's obsession in trying to fix what he did wrong, which brings up endless amounts of moralistic quandary that, unfortunately, doesn't get enough due attention; instead, Timeless gets a bit bogged down in moving plot, since there is so much of it to deal with here. All well and good, but I'm more interested in the character moments, and that's where this episodes does come through - surprisingly enough, a great deal of it during the climax! Go on, admit it: you wanted to leap up just as much as Old Kim did when he shouted his last word, "YES!!!" Chalk that up to good directing on Captain LaForge's part. Ooohhhhh, what to decide. Ah, DS9. VOY was very good too, but there's a slight problem when I'm actually more interested in the adventures of Rogue Kim & Chakotay than seeing the regular VOY crew carry on as usual. Agree to disagree to your heart's content. Weekly Winner DS9 Next: DS9 - Covenant VOY - Infinite Regress B5 - Sleeping In The Light
I don't think River of Souls is better than Objects at Rest. OaR isn't amazing - what happens with Lennier is particularly frustrating, and of course Londo showing up and teasing us with something that we would never see (bar what had already 'happened' in War Without End) was a shame. The rest of it, however, blows RoS away. I particularly liked/cried at Sheridan and Delenn leaving the station; saluting to the next generation of officers taking over B5. A very heartfelt moment indeed. RoS is my least favourite B5 movie. I feel that it has nothing going for it, except for the goofy lovebat. The casting of Martin Sheen is inspired, but he's wasted in a dull role. I just hate it. With Timeless and The Siege of AR-558, you have the complete opposite. Both episodes are some of the best of VOY and DS9 respectively. Timeless offers high stakes across the timelines, and even emotional payoff at the end. It's also amazing that such a good episode used Chakotay and Harry Kim in particular, two of the most underused, pointless characters by this point of the series' run. AR-588 is a very tense episode, showing us the reality of a prolonged conflict, and then mutilating one of our characters. Quark is used well here - he doesn't understand the pointlessness of it all. I also enjoyed Ezri and Lennier's side plot that ended badly. DS9 probably wins the week for me too, but it's so very close with VOY. I see no clear winner for next week's batch of episodes.
I think Timeless was the clear winner, and he only gave DS9 the win out of guilt for Voyager winning the last season. I think we should all just admit Voyager is better than DS9 and come to terms with it.
I do hate Soul Hunters, but I love President Bartlet, and my love of Bartlet won out in the end. I could listen to Martin Sheen talk about genital warts, but what I'd really hear is "Cruciatus in crucem. Eas in crucem." Damn you James Gandolfini! You stole his Emmy! Anyway... I'd go with Timeless this week, but it's close because I really like AR-558, but I'm not a fan of the music during much of the episode and that holds it back for me. Yes, Timeless wins because it has better music, it's that close. I might admit it on 21/12/2012 just to see what happens.
Timeless is a Voyager episode I've actually seen recently because it's on the "Alternate Lives/Alternate Universes" (exact title escapes me) DVD set that somebody gave me as a Christmas gift a while back. It's much better than average for Voyager, but honestly it's still not that good. Just another time-travel episode with a reset-button. Harry and Chakotay's characterization in this episode only seems worthy of note because they are such non-entities the rest of the time. The Siege of AR-558 isn't up there with the best of season 7 imo, mostly due to the fact that it does rely heavily on a series of unoriginal war movie tropes, but the episode still brings a lot to the table: the war movie tropes are well-handled, the episode provides a much needed look at the brutal side of the war, Quark's speech on humanity's potential for barbaric violence is memorable, and of course there is the long-term impact on Nog. Voyager does quality work with a concept that Trek uses all the time. It has no lasting impact and no real significance within the context of the show as a whole, except perhaps as the inspiration for the atrocious Endgame. Meanwhile DS9 does quality work with a concept that is normally foreign to Trek, that has lasting impact and is important within the context of the show as a whole.
This is such a cool thread. I could have given the win to anyone. I don't envy you, Sykonee. All I have to do is assign numbers.
timeless is an episode i watch quite frequently, and it never fails to amaze me. that's sf at its very best, a rollercoaster of emotions framed by future technology. the two b5 stories are as mediocre as much of the show, and in order to refresh my memory why i dislike the siege of ar558, i just rewatched it. right, it feels like a particularly bad b-war movie with a budget of 100 bucks or so, a story seen thousands of times in different wrappings, cliches all over the place. it's hypocritical, when sisko bemoans at the end that kira terms the losses "a lot of lost names" (sisko struggling to maintain his composure: "they're not just names"), the question arises why they were sacrificed for a pointless cause in the first place, but that sacrifices must be made for the greater good is evidently the premise one has to get used to. there is a difference between the sacrifice the four heroes of timeless made, it was their own decision, and the troopers of ar558 where it was a mix of bad politics, warmongery, orders, a perverted code of honor, and probably some lust to kill, too. quark is as great as usual and contributes a couple of fine statements, without the ferengi, ds9 would be quite bleak.
Voyager had way too many time travel episodes, IMO. There were so many at this point that the concept of time travel lost its novelty and fascination. In The Siege of AR-558, you can see right through the cliches in it -- I can see a lot of Saving Private Ryan in this episode from start to finish almost. If they had based it on another war film, like "Platoon" I think it would have been very interesting. Ironically, Voyager did an episode somewhat similar to the things in Vietnam war. I choose "Siege" because we got to see a little of what full scale war looks like in the Trek universe.