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Star Trek Movies I-X Discuss the first ten big screen outings in this forum!

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Old June 29 2014, 09:45 PM   #136
urbandefault
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Re: why did the V'ger probe take Ilia?

Christopher wrote: View Post
martok2112 wrote: View Post
Perhaps.

I've always tried my best to live by my philosophy that words only last as long as they are spoken. As soon as they are spoken...poof...they vanish. They leave no physical scars or bruises. And only leave other bruises if you allow it.

Most of the time, it works for me. Most of the time.
Not to drag things further off topic, but it's rather more complicated when it's an actual ethnic slur like "Redskins," say. Then there's a lot more behind it than just someone being hypersensitive, because in a case like that, the words are just a symptom of actual actions, beliefs, and policies that have harmful effects on a whole culture. One cannot dismiss the impact of hate speech as just a case of the victims being too thin-skinned.
"Redskin" is only an ethnic slur to people who choose to see it that way. The Washington football team was named Redskins partly in honor of their first coach, a Native American (where I come from, Indians still call themselves Indians). My home state of Oklahoma is literally "land of the red man."

People have become soft in the head, and thin-skinned in the process. Sticks and stones, people. Words can't hurt you if you don't let them. Shake it off and come back for another round.

Now, back on topic before some descendant of my ancestors scalps us all.
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Old June 29 2014, 10:00 PM   #137
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Re: why did the V'ger probe take Ilia?

Christopher wrote: View Post
martok2112 wrote: View Post
Perhaps.

I've always tried my best to live by my philosophy that words only last as long as they are spoken. As soon as they are spoken...poof...they vanish. They leave no physical scars or bruises. And only leave other bruises if you allow it.

Most of the time, it works for me. Most of the time.
Not to drag things further off topic, but it's rather more complicated when it's an actual ethnic slur like "Redskins," say. Then there's a lot more behind it than just someone being hypersensitive, because in a case like that, the words are just a symptom of actual actions, beliefs, and policies that have harmful effects on a whole culture. One cannot dismiss the impact of hate speech as just a case of the victims being too thin-skinned.
I can agree there.
Of course, it also doesn't help when folks don't break the stereotypes either.
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Old June 29 2014, 10:09 PM   #138
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Re: why did the V'ger probe take Ilia?

When language becomes a slur (link).
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Old June 29 2014, 10:31 PM   #139
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Re: why did the V'ger probe take Ilia?

I have way more Native blood than US Senator Elizabeth Warren, so I will proudly wear the Redskin badge, slur or no. And I will refuse any special treatment from the government or special interest groups because of it. In fact, I'm going to the Redskins website now and buy some merchandise.

That Atlantic article is, in my opinion, trying to sensationalize the issue by using other words that have been rejected by "polite society."

Now, can we finally get back on topic?
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Old June 29 2014, 11:25 PM   #140
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Re: why did the V'ger probe take Ilia?

Granted, I'll concede that sometimes terms that start out as hate speech can be reclaimed by the groups they were meant to attack, like "gay" and "queer" have been. But that doesn't necessarily make it okay for people outside those groups to use it -- as with the n-word when it's used within the black community versus when it's used by others. I don't see this term being embraced and redeemed by the Native American community -- I see it being used by a white-dominated sports culture to reduce Native Americans to comical mascots, and being too sentimentally attached to their sports iconography to be honest about its problematical aspects.

There can be legitimate grounds for different points of view on this issue, but that's just it -- they're legitimate. On both sides. Lots of people have very genuine reasons for being concerned by such usage, and it's petty and condescending to insult people's intelligence just because you don't agree with them. If you want to explain why you see it differently, fine, but don't dismiss them as "soft in the head" simply for having a different perspective from yours.
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Old June 30 2014, 12:29 AM   #141
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Re: why did the V'ger probe take Ilia?

Not to minimize anyone's points about real-world issues, but wow, the wheels have really fallen off this wagon!
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Old June 30 2014, 01:38 AM   #142
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Re: why did the V'ger probe take Ilia?

Christopher wrote: View Post
Granted, I'll concede that sometimes terms that start out as hate speech can be reclaimed by the groups they were meant to attack, like "gay" and "queer" have been. But that doesn't necessarily make it okay for people outside those groups to use it -- as with the n-word when it's used within the black community versus when it's used by others. I don't see this term being embraced and redeemed by the Native American community -- I see it being used by a white-dominated sports culture to reduce Native Americans to comical mascots, and being too sentimentally attached to their sports iconography to be honest about its problematical aspects.

There can be legitimate grounds for different points of view on this issue, but that's just it -- they're legitimate. On both sides. Lots of people have very genuine reasons for being concerned by such usage, and it's petty and condescending to insult people's intelligence just because you don't agree with them. If you want to explain why you see it differently, fine, but don't dismiss them as "soft in the head" simply for having a different perspective from yours.
For crying out loud, just stop.

If you want to be a bleeding heart, fine. But you can't expect everyone else to cry along with you. Especially those you're supposedly crying for, when they're not the ones complaining.

This is a minority of a minority of a minority making waves, goaded into it by another miniscule group of malcontents trying to pasteurize and homogenize our culture into something with absolutely no diversity, contrary to what they claim. If these people have their way, one day the only way we'll be able to communicate is to have an English-to-Approved-Speech dictionary open at all times.

Now, CAN WE GET BACK ON TOPIC???

Jeez.
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Old June 30 2014, 02:32 AM   #143
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Re: why did the V'ger probe take Ilia?

There is no positive definition of the term Redskin. The patent office did research on it.

It would be like having a team named the Washington Niggers (sorry, don't mean to offend anyone) and claiming that it is named that to show respect to black people.

It's non-sense.

The only reason this isn't an issue is because Native Americans are a vanquished people with a small population.
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Old June 30 2014, 02:48 AM   #144
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Re: why did the V'ger probe take Ilia?

Um...I thought Ilia was Deltan, not Native American?
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Old June 30 2014, 02:53 AM   #145
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Re: why did the V'ger probe take Ilia?

LMFAOschwarz wrote: View Post
Um...I thought Ilia was Deltan, not Native American?
A Deltan-Native American!
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Old June 30 2014, 06:50 AM   #146
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Re: why did the V'ger probe take Ilia?

urbandefault wrote: View Post
For crying out loud, just stop.

If you want to be a bleeding heart, fine. But you can't expect everyone else to cry along with you. Especially those you're supposedly crying for, when they're not the ones complaining.
``I know this guy who's totally not offended, so everyone who says it's offensive is proven wrong!''
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Old June 30 2014, 06:55 AM   #147
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Re: why did the V'ger probe take Ilia?

Sran wrote: View Post
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Well, at least nobody used "Redshirts" as the name of a sports team...

(That I know of.)
Correct. The closest would be the Red Legs, who no longer exist. Major League Baseball's Cincinnati Reds and St. John's University's Red Storm are the closest team names I know of today.
Well, more, ``redshirt'' is, going back generations, slang for a college athlete who's not playing for the year so as to keep him around for future eligibility (normally the student is supposed to focus on being a student during this time). Naming a sports team the Redshirts would have the connotations of calling a team the Cleveland Benchwarmers or the San Diego Fourth-Stringers.
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Old June 30 2014, 01:04 PM   #148
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Re: why did the V'ger probe take Ilia?

Kevman7987 wrote: View Post
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redshirts don't have relatives

redshirts aren't real people

redshirts are redshirts
That is shirtcist. You offend me, sir!
Ironic that Austin Powers spent more time showing the fall-out and consequnces of the deaths of un-named minions than Trek does with redshirts
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Old June 30 2014, 05:21 PM   #149
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Re: why did the V'ger probe take Ilia?

I thought the high heels were ugly, but I was wondering if they might have been trying to equalize her height a little so she could be in the scene without having her stand on a box.

Of course that wouldn't be and in universe reason, but neither is sex appeal.
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