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View Poll Results: Which class of ship is more powerful?
Galaxy class 26 54.17%
D'deridex class 22 45.83%
Voters: 48. You may not vote on this poll

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Old April 21 2014, 01:41 AM   #91
LeadHead
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Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class

Timo wrote: View Post
There would be no added vulnerability from having the roof: any shockwave would simply obliterate everything in its path, or then not. On the Starfleet ship, the shockwave of a torpedo detonated between the nacelles would meet the nacelles, the secondary hull and the primary hull, and those would be destroyed, or not. On the Romulan ship, it would additionally meet the roof piece and the stern piece, which would also be destroyed, or not. Their actual placement would not be relevant there - in both designs, all components would be equidistant from the detonation point anyway, which is the only thing that matters.
I'm afraid I have to disagree again, in the warbird design, the whole ship is equidistant to the detonation point. In the galaxy class, part of the ship is further away,the fact that there's more distance, plus more ship between the bow of the ship and the blast point. The roof being directly over the basement means that the properly detonated blast would have the very real possibility of ripping the roof and the basement apart from the rest of the ship. If that is accomplished, the "Head" of the warbird will either be thrown from the rest of the ship or simply left drifting. Either way, game, set and match to the Galaxy.

Timo wrote: View Post
The 2 target approach would work well against the warbird, since warp drive is the most useful in entering or leaving battle, the fact that the saucer is restricted to impulse in a battle is not as big of a problem.
It's a massive problem, as the saucer can neither flee from battles nor join them. Any separation maneuver would simply result in half the Starfleet ship being left behind, useless, while the Romulan ship would remain intact and free to maneuver in all situations.
In TNG battles, warp is primarily used in getting to and away from the battlefield. In TOS, warp was used to maneuver in combat.

If in an impulse battle between a warbird and a galaxy class ship, he warbird would be at a disadvantage because of the option to separate and become two targets. enabling to ability to surround the warbird. Also, if the warbird cloaked and intended to strike again, when it decloaked, it would likely only have optimum firing position on one of them, leaving the other to defend or inflict damage at that time.

Timo wrote: View Post
Also, its shape would make it difficult to target.
It's the shape of a dartboard. That's the easiest shape in the world to target, for a given volume.

In contrast, half the shots aimed at the Romulan ship would just pass harmlessly through.
Actually, the dartboard shape only works if the warbird is above or below, if the saucer and a warbird are face to face, the saucer is a smaller target.

The shield bubble is the key point. The saucers shield bubble would cover it, while the warbirds would cover the gap area, making it much easier to hit. And again, once it's shields are down, you may not agree on this point, but torpedoes passing through and detonated at the right moment, would do severe damage.

Timo wrote: View Post
With the exception of reshuffling personnel to the Battle Bridge, it doesn't seem that separating the ship would take all that much longer than a warbird dropping its shields and cloaking.
According to the episodes, cloaking or decloaking takes about three to five seconds, tops. Separation after the personnel shuffling is completed takes about a dozen seconds in the abbreviated version of "Arsenal of Freedom", and longer in "Encounter at Farpoint" and "Best of Both Worlds".

Timo Saloniemi
All of those instances involved time out of combat for preparation. So the crews were already reshuffled, however on a Red Alert, it is likely that a standby crew would take stations on the battle bridge in case separation was called for. Also, a Red Alert specifically calls for civilians to return to quarters and personnel to take their stations, which should be accomplished within a couple of minutes. Would it take longer to separate the saucer than to cloak? Yes. I don't think it would be the deciding factor of the battle.

The weaknesses of the Warbird design and the two target issues would be the deciding factors.
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Old April 21 2014, 10:27 PM   #92
Timo
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Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class

I'm afraid I have to disagree again, in the warbird design, the whole ship is equidistant to the detonation point. In the galaxy class, part of the ship is further away
Well, not really. The saucer diameter of the Federation ship is not significantly greater than the "chord" or length of the bird-head of the Romulan ship. If anything, the massive size of the Romulan vessel will mean that in absolute terms, every part of it is farther away from this postulated detonation point than in the Federation equivalent.

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/a...bird_Sizes.jpg

If in an impulse battle between a warbird and a galaxy class ship, he warbird would be at a disadvantage because of the option to separate and become two targets. enabling to ability to surround the warbird.
Quite the opposite - the warbird would use the very capacity you establish, the use of warp to disengage from a battle, to leave the saucer behind and completely eliminate her from the equation. All the Galaxy would "achieve" by splitting would be some time wasted with the split and the subsequently necessary reattaching.

(This assuming that the saucer does not have a warp engine of its own. But both "Encounter at Farpoint" and "Arsenal of Freedom" actually establish that the saucer can move at high warp for a considerable length of time, and accelerate to that speed from sublight or standstill using only their own engines.)

Since the saucer is never separated in any battle (save for the Borg one where a decoy function is first planned, and a double-decoy function later executed, and nobody really intends to destroy anything with the force of weapons), I doubt Starfleet sees any merit in using saucers for combat. Why that would be, we don't know for sure, but it could be that saucer weapons are no good after separation.

Actually, the dartboard shape only works if the warbird is above or below, if the saucer and a warbird are face to face, the saucer is a smaller target.
Naturally, the warbird would fire from any direction other than the edge. Which is most directions. Statistically, the flat saucer is the largest target imaginable for a given volume, the fairly irrelevant special scenario of edge-on engagement notwithstanding.

And yes, the saucer can no doubt pivot to present an edge. But the warbird can maneuver apace with the pivoting easily enough. Linear acceleration has never been much of a problem for starships at sublight, so the angular velocity of the flipping saucer would probably meet its match.

The saucers shield bubble would cover it, while the warbirds would cover the gap area, making it much easier to hit.
Do Romulan ships have shield bubbles? Skintight shielding seems the norm in DS9; in TNG, we never really see warbird shields in action.

In any case, the warbird is so big that it's easier to hit no matter what - but this is hardly relevant when starships have a 100% hit rate against all targets, including wildly maneuvering tiny fighters.

Timo Saloniemi
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Old May 18 2014, 12:21 PM   #93
spacedock1
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Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class

kgartm1185 wrote: View Post
"We know the D'deridex was intended to be larger, and was occasionally photographed as being larger, but this isn't all that clear-cut."

Galaxy class
Length - 642.51 meters
Beam - 463.73 meters
Height - 195.26 meters
Mass - 4.5 million metric tons
D'deridex class
Length - 1,041.65 meters
Beam - 772.43 meters
Height - 285.47 meters
Mass - 4.3 million metric tons

The D'deridex class warbird may have been longer, wider, and taller than the Galaxy class but it was not "larger".

Case for D'deridex Class warbird: 1) cloaking device technology
case against D'deridex Class warbird:1)Federation can use Tachyon detection Grids to detect cloaked ship.(TNG:redemption part 2)
2)Even with perfected cloaking technology the romulan cloaked vessel can still be detected by the federation using telepathic races such as the Betazoids to detect their thoughts.( Star trek :Nemesis)

3)D'deridex Class warbird is powered by quantum singularity.Quantum singularity disappears unless continually fed matter.

Case for Galaxy Class: 1)saucer separation . The secondary hull/battle section diversifies the immediate danger in that non essential personnel can be evacuated in primary hull while secondary hull tackles threat.
2)Galaxy class ships use Matter/anti matter in their warp core.This can be jury rigged into a weapon.Contrast this with the romulan method to achieve warp flight.
3)Navigational deflector dish can also be improvised into a weapon(TNG:Best of both worlds part 2)

Case against galaxy class: 1) smaller size.But is smaller size a weakness? as was mentioned in an earlier in the thread,USS Voyager,an intrepid class vessel, could take out much larger kazon vessels on its its own(VOY: Caretaker)

So on the basis of these factors i would say that while a warbird may look threatening 'its bark is worse than its bite'. The little evidence that exists suggests the galaxy class can easily match a D'deridex class warbird.

Last edited by spacedock1; May 18 2014 at 01:07 PM. Reason: unfinished post
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Old May 18 2014, 03:32 PM   #94
RunawayStarShip
Lieutenant Junior Grade
 
Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class

spacedock1 wrote: View Post
kgartm1185 wrote: View Post
"We know the D'deridex was intended to be larger, and was occasionally photographed as being larger, but this isn't all that clear-cut."

Galaxy class
Length - 642.51 meters
Beam - 463.73 meters
Height - 195.26 meters
Mass - 4.5 million metric tons
D'deridex class
Length - 1,041.65 meters
Beam - 772.43 meters
Height - 285.47 meters
Mass - 4.3 million metric tons

The D'deridex class warbird may have been longer, wider, and taller than the Galaxy class but it was not "larger".

Case for D'deridex Class warbird: 1) cloaking device technology
case against D'deridex Class warbird:1)Federation can use Tachyon detection Grids to detect cloaked ship.(TNG:redemption part 2)
2)Even with perfected cloaking technology the romulan cloaked vessel can still be detected by the federation using telepathic races such as the Betazoids to detect their thoughts.( Star trek :Nemesis)

3)D'deridex Class warbird is powered by quantum singularity.Quantum singularity disappears unless continually fed matter.

Case for Galaxy Class: 1)saucer separation . The secondary hull/battle section diversifies the immediate danger in that non essential personnel can be evacuated in primary hull while secondary hull tackles threat.
2)Galaxy class ships use Matter/anti matter in their warp core.This can be jury rigged into a weapon.Contrast this with the romulan method to achieve warp flight.
3)Navigational deflector dish can also be improvised into a weapon(TNG:Best of both worlds part 2)

Case against galaxy class: 1) smaller size.But is smaller size a weakness? as was mentioned in an earlier in the thread,USS Voyager,an intrepid class vessel, could take out much larger kazon vessels on its its own(VOY: Caretaker)

So on the basis of these factors i would say that while a warbird may look threatening 'its bark is worse than its bite'. The little evidence that exists suggests the galaxy class can easily match a D'deridex class warbird.
Andrew Probert designed the D'deridex-class warbird to be 4400 feet long, or 1341 metres... which is larger than either illustrated comparison. "1041 metres" looks like a typo. In terms of volume, it is more than 4 times bigger than a Galaxy-class starship. That's a lot more room. I'm sure that a lot of it is oversized equipment for a quantum singularity, but there should be enough left over for more weapons and shield generators.

As for the quantum singularity disappearing eventually when not fed matter, that's a good thing. A warbird struck in its power generation system loses power, but could survive on batteries for a little while. A starship struck in its warp core suffers destruction.

In "The Enemy", Picard was not the least bit worried about saber-rattling against Tomalak. Likewise, Tomalak was not the least bit intimidated by Picard.

Neither ship directly engaged in battle against each other (although in "Tin Man', a warbird severely weakened the Enterprise-D's aft shields while Picard chose not to fire back), but they have fought common enemies during the Dominion War. Pre-Dominion War, no Alpha Quadrant vessel stood a chance against the Jem'Hadar ("The Jem'Hadar", "The Die is Cast"). By the last episode of DS9, Federation, Klingon, Romulan, and Cardassian starships were destroying Jem'Hadar attack ships with single shots.

During the First Battle of Chin'toka, the orbital weapons platforms outright destroyed medium-sized ships that were hit (Excelsior-class and Akira-class ships come to mind). Smaller ships that could evade fire survived (the Defiant). Larger ships that could take a beating also survived when hit, but took notable damage (the USS Galaxy herself). A D'deridex-class warbird was also under fire, but I can't remember whether it survived or not.

Now, it really is up in the air which starship is better in combat (given the same crew effectiveness), but in terms of sheer strength, the ship that's more than 4 times bigger probably isn't going to be the underdog.
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Old May 19 2014, 11:41 PM   #95
publiusr
Commodore
 
Re: D'deridex class Warbird vs Galaxy class

I love that huge vertical warbird Probert originally wanted--we got to see it in a calander at least.
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