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Old January 14 2014, 03:41 AM   #31
Albertese's Avatar
Location: Portland, OR
Re: Lack of Alien influence in Starfleet ship design...

Well, if we're now talking about if UFO's are real aliens (...seems like that's where this is heading...) I would like to point out that the overwhelming majority of such things are demonstrably hoaxes or military experiments. Check out this pretty good documentary that explains most of such things.

It's an hour and a half long.

Check out my website:
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Old January 14 2014, 04:13 AM   #32
Lieutenant Commander
Re: Lack of Alien influence in Starfleet ship design...

Carl Jung, one of the founders of modern psychiatry, believed that UFOs might be projections of our collective unconsciousness. That would be a very interesting aspect of reality if it's possible.

Regardless, one source of Art is our inner longings. Vallee looked specifically at alien mthos as it was developing post-1947 in things like the contactee movement, but he also looked at much older myths like the changeling myth in Celtic countries.

When the Interupted Jouney tv film was made about Betty and Barney Hill, it was watched by millions. Some skeptics felt that it planted a seed in those folks and helped foster the UFO abduction myths, and then influenced art created by those folks.

Vallee many years prior points to similar features in Celtic myths in his book Passport to Magonia.

No matter what, certain structures from history and culture affect art, and art in turn affects history and culture formation.

In terms of the topic, alien starships are not very diverse usually since the aliens are mostly humanoid. This meant not having to engineer alien looking starships since most species are bipedal and like us in most respects.

That's why I've tried to stretch the topic a little with discussion on exobiology and how evolution might play out, either for or against a humanoid arising. Likewise I've tried to discuss potential warp engines from a scientific standpoint and the limitation of such things. I think you can see why astonomers like Hynek and Vallee came to disbelieve in an extraterrestrial hypothesis from a pragmatic energy to mass ratio for fuel requirements.

Whatever UFOs are, 99% may be weather phenomena, adreneline affecting judgement and observation and recall, military operations, etc they are also some very strange ones that can't be explained away like the Alaskan UFO with many hours of radar data that impressed the president, his chief advisors, and the military.

This is why I've also included unexplained phenomena from photographic evidence of the time period.

If you scroll back and read about Kenneth Arnold, and see his rendering, and the photo taken in 1947, then consider the possibility of the Horten Ho 229 fixed wing aircraft. See:

The actual discovered prototype:
It's too large to display here, but go see it.

Look familiar? While the Nazi's did make a prototype, they obviously were not flying one in 1947. But that doesn't mean Operation Paperclip Nazi scientists were not flying military prototypes for the USA.
Among those scientists were Werner Von Braun. Remember him? You should for he directly helped the budding US Space race.

Some things can be explained away. Others cannot. There's a mystery and regardless it affected the art of Star Trek's starship design.

Here's the TR-3 Manta, a black project that probably is a result of the Aurora project. It is shaped like a black triangle, a common UFO today that's reported, but an uncommon one in history until the 1990s.

Look familiar? This isn't to say that all black triangle UFOs from 1990 to present day are TR-3s. Here's one from Germany in the mid 1990s.

Last edited by Robbiesan; January 14 2014 at 04:27 AM.
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Old January 14 2014, 09:17 AM   #33
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Re: Lack of Alien influence in Starfleet ship design... < doesnt work i get 403 forbidden
All my Starship Drawings and Art + My custom mini ship collection. Only 1 mini ship and 2 model kit ships are by me. 3DS Friend code: 0731-4800-6817
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Old January 14 2014, 10:28 AM   #34
Lieutenant Commander
Re: Lack of Alien influence in Starfleet ship design...

Kaiser wrote: View Post < doesnt work i get 403 forbidden]
Lots of pics here

Now look closely at the strange craft seen before the Roswell Incident, the drawing used for Arnold's book, and the Horten HO 229. They're not all identical. The surveillance photo is more compressed and not necessarily this fixed wing Nazi-origin craft.

But you can see how a plausible case could be made for it. It's better than one theory which was that Roswell was caused by a Fu-go ballon from Japan. That was a program to launch ballons into the US from Japan. Some impacted in the Pacific Northwest and did damage, and this was kept quiet. One skeptic felt that one of these had mysteriously landed and resulted in the debris field. That's not plausible given the amount of material deposited.

Something large and leaving a massive amount of debris crashed, and it took a long time with excavation equipment to remove it. They actually sifted through the soil, much as archeologists do when looking for artifacts to ensure removing as much as possible. There's too many witnesses, and too much testimony, though they're all so elderly now.

So, it could be a top secret program from either the US or the Soviets, a bonafide UFO, or something else that crashed.

All of that actually was partially responsible for a portion of the science fiction movement within the US and did result in speculation, films being made, art being created, and Star Trek captured a portion of that energy.

Note that there were several crash stories for years leading up to the late 80s. It wasn't always certain about the timeline to Roswell.

A little side note: the Horton was intended to be a stealth vessel. It had a mixed composition of charcoal that was intended to absorb the radar wave frequency of the day that was used by the Allies.
"[FONT=Calibri][SIZE=+1]Engineers at Northrop wanted to find out if the German craft could actually be radar resistant. Northrop tested the non-flying reproduction at its classified radar testing facility in Tejon, California. During the testing the frequencies used by British radar facilities at the end of the war were directed at the reproduction. Tom Dobrenz, a Northrop Grumman stealth expert said about the H.IX, "This design gave them just about a 20 percent reduction in radar range detection over a conventional fighter of the day."

Last edited by Robbiesan; January 14 2014 at 10:44 AM.
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