Creating a realistic crew manifest for a Starship. Ideas & comments?

Re: Creating a realistic crew manifest for a Starship. Ideas & comment

And if this Defiant class were based at a Starship it could be that some crewmembers are double tasked as being crew on the Defiant-class or to augment it as needed. This post gave me an idea to have the new First Officer in my version of DS9 serve as the Defiant's commanding officer...thanks for that.

 

Re: Creating a realistic crew manifest for a Starship. Ideas & comment

Remember that the Defiant was not designed to go on extended missions (exploration, border patrol, etc.) but rather was a pure combat ship, so you don't need a full crew 24/7, with minimum manning "at night".

I'm not sure why you need nine Security troops. It's doubtful that you'll capture many P.O.W.s (just lock them up until you get back to base), and if the ship is boarded everyone will be armed to defend themselves and the ship.

Personally, I'd really like to see someone to man the weapons, and also someone on scanner/sensors.

 

Re: Creating a realistic crew manifest for a Starship. Ideas & comment

They wouldn't be off on extended assignments, but ones that would last for a week or two at most on occassion, so the ship would have a full roster each shift to keep it "fighting fit".

On normal operations the security crew would be a sort of 'deckhand' seeing to all the little jobs that need doing that aren't glamerous or all that interesting, though necessary, as well as providing cover on the bridge, manning weapons control and seeing to systems maintenance, crew training and safety drills. Most of the time it would be fairly routine, but so is pretty much every duty onboard.

That's just how I look at it for the ship I'm using though.

 

Re: Creating a realistic crew manifest for a Starship. Ideas & comment

Sorry if this isn't the right thread for it, but realistically what ranks do you think that Simon Tarses (refered to as a medical technician first class) and O'Brien and Torres' engineers that were refered to as 'Crewman' would actually hold?

IMO, in Tarses' he's likely to be what Starfleet calls a Specialist (which is usually assumed to align roughly with PO3-PO1, though he seems a little young for PO1).

As far as the 'Crewmen' (on Starships and FOBs) go, I think it's likely that in common with current RN policy on 'Able Seaman' (and possibly deployed USN/CG Seaman) they have completely their formal specialist training and are 'Crewman' rather 'Specialist' mainly cos they haven't got the experience to apply their knowledge esp in unusual situations (which seem to be common place in Starfleet!). A comparision might be with a rookie cop?

Shamrock Holmes

 

Re: Creating a realistic crew manifest for a Starship. Ideas & comment

In terms of present-day US Navy ranks, I would say Tarses would likely be an E-3 (equivalent to Able Seaman) and Torres, a Technician First Class might be equal to a US Navy Petty Officer First Class (E-6). O'Brien was referred to later in DSN as a Senior Chief which would be an E-8 on the grade scale.

 

Re: Creating a realistic crew manifest for a Starship. Ideas & comment

What about crewing a space station?

I'm looking at how I'd fill out the ranks of DS9, which has been given a crew complement of between 350-500 (depending on sources), made up of Starfleet and Militia personnel, and operates on a four shift rotation.

Giving it a stab in the dark, I went with the higher number of crew and came up with fifteen departments under nine divisions:
Command - Command
Administration - Administration
Administration - Customs
Flight Control - Docking Control
Flight Control - Pilots
Maintenance - Maintenance
Operations - Cargo
Operations - Communications
Operations - Computer Management
Operations - Transporters
Security - Security
Tactical - Tactical
Medical - Medical
Medical - Counselling
Science - Science

Is this too many or is there anything I've not covered?

 

Re: Creating a realistic crew manifest for a Starship. Ideas & comment

I'm sure about the 'not covered' but personally I think I'd probably keep the three canonical 'divisions', but split them up a little differently (Command [the actual 'Command staff', Tactical and Flight Operations]; Operations [Maintenance, Logistics [Cargo, Transporters], Communications and Computer Management, and Security], and Staff Corps [basically the 'civilian side', but including Space Sciences, Health Sciences [inc Medical, Nursing and Counselling], Social Sciences, JAG, Chaplaincy et al) and uniformed personnel on detached duty to agencies like the Diplomatic Corps (excluding Security Guards) or affiliates like the Daystrom Institute.

Although I suppose the 'everything else' part of Staff could be split off from the Sciences. And then there's departments like Starfleet Intelligence, the Inspector General, the SCE and others that might not be found on every base or ship, but probably warrant inclusion somewhere in the structure and could possibly be combined with the above?

- Shamrock Holmes

 

Re: Creating a realistic crew manifest for a Starship. Ideas & comment

I always stick with the three uniform colours (only time I ever conceive of other ones being out there are for marines of starfighter corps), so Red would cover Command, Admin and Flight Control; Gold would be for Maintenance, Operations, Security and Tactical; and Blue for Medical and Science.

I did wonder about including Intelligence, though since it's now post war having a dedicated officer/department doesn't feel as necessary. I was thinking that the station's new Second Officer would cover those responsibilities if/when needed. S.C.E. personnel form an integral part of the station's maintenance staff. As for Inspector General (which I admittedly had to Google) doesn't seem like something every outpost would have aboard, so could be handled by station personnel unless it was something serious, in which case dedicated staff could be called in.

 

Re: Creating a realistic crew manifest for a Starship. Ideas & comment

Here's the thing: DS9 is a poor example of what a Base Station / Battle Station should be. (It's too small to be a Star Base.)

When Sisko was sent to DS9, they made it pretty clear that it was a dead-end assignment for someone whom Star Fleet had lost confidence in. The Federation gave lip service to the importance of Bajor, but the place wasn't afforded the support is needed, even after they found the wormhole. It wasn't until it became a front-line defense point during the war before it got half what it should have had. Even then, its staff was atypical of what a Battle Station would have.

If you want realism, a Base Station / Star Base would probably use G-staff divisions similar to the modern Army (A-staff for Air Force / N-staff for Navy): 1= Personnel, 2= Intelligence & Security, 3= Operations, 4= Logistics & Supply, 5= Plans, 6= Communications and Computers, 7= Training, 8= Finance & Resource Management, 9= Civilian Affairs. These are what's listed on Wiki, but could be modified if you desire. For example, I would split Security out from Intel or put it under Ops.

The command section would have the Commander (O-7) and Vice Commander (O-6), each with an exec officer (O-4 & O-3) and a personal Yeoman (admin clerk) or two, and the Commander Chief Petty Officer. Note that this is the Base command staff; the base might serve as a Numbered Fleet Headquarters and so there would be a separate, larger, fleet command staff headed by a three-star or four-star admiral. The base would also have an orderly room, headed by an O-3 or O-4, with several enlisted Yeomen, to handle the day-to-day admin needs of the base personnel.

Each of the G-staff divisions would also have a division head, usually an O-6 but may be an O-5, with an O-5 deputy, an exec officer, and a Yeoman or two. The division would be broken down into functional sections based on what they do, each with an Officer In Charge (OIC) of an O-4 or O-3, and then however many worker-bees (officer and/or enlisted) required to get the job done.

By and large, most of the divisions work bankers' hours Mon-Fri 0730-1630 local time. Obviously, some functions require 24/7 operations and thus have increased manning to cover all the shifts.

Some functions that don't fall neatly into the G-staff system are: JAG/legal, Inspector General, safety investigations, .... and I had one more that just escaped my brain. The base would also have two functions that do NOT fall under the Base Commander's jurisdiction: criminal investigators (think NCIS or USAF OSI) and Area Defense Counsel. These two agencies have separate, independent, chains of command that fall under Star Fleet Headquarters, so that there can be no undue influence by the local command into legal proceedings against an accused serviceman on trial / under investigations. (That's one thing the TV show "J.A.G." got very wrong: military lawyers do not flip/flop the roles of prosecutor and defense from one case to the next.)

 

Re: Creating a realistic crew manifest for a Starship. Ideas & comment

I think the humans are REQUIRED in the event of a computer virus, a concept I've used in my own works.

As for the plot, it reminds me of my own plot, only with a lot more characters.

Personally I find writing the story the best way to find out who all's on the crew and who's on what shift.

Then go back and edit the early stuff to make it fit.

Hope this helps.

 

Re: Creating a realistic crew manifest for a Starship. Ideas & comment

N-9 is also the catch-all - whatever your command does that noone else does is N-9. But this is only on shore. My last tour was at N-9, ECRC (Expeditionary Combat Readiness Center). N-9 meant that we drove the busses to get the Individual Augmentees to and from the airport and their accommodations on base, and we handled NFAAS - the program where we contacted IAs and their families regularly during their deployment and during disasters. We had higher echelons, but N-9 in those had different functions. ECRC was decomming a few months after I retired, and their functions moved to the next higher echelon, which was going to turn their N-9 into N-9A and N-9B because ECRC's N-9 was the only workcenter that had to be carried over. It'd be simpler to make N-10, or for those used to Traveller, N-A, but oh well. Not my decision.
In the navy, JAG is a tenant command at the base, so the Base CO does have some control - he can require their participation in basewide urinalysis instead of local command urinalysis for example - my first shore duty was at the base MAA in Fallon, and we ran the piss test for all commands except NSAWC (Top Gun), which was a higher echelon physically resident on base, so not a tenant). But the Base CO is not allowed in the loop for proceeding where JAG at his base are handling defense. In the navy, whoever gets to JAG first gets their services, and the other party must deal with the next nearest office, and there are few enough lawyers that they do and must flip roles.
We usually tried to ensure we were ready to bring the case to JAG on our base before the accused knew what was up so that *they* had to deal with navy legal at NAS LeMoore. It's embarrassing for the Skipper to be represented by the visiting lawyer
And I believe N-2 refers to Security in the sense of keeping intel secret, not so much about posting guards at the gate.

 

Re: Creating a realistic crew manifest for a Starship. Ideas & comment

Another way to organize a Star Base / Base Station would be like the modern USAF Air Base Wing. The "wing king" is a full-bird O-6 or a one-star O-7, and of course he has his support staff consisting of a vice-commander, command chief, exec officers, and admin clerks. He'd have a small A-staff, as per above.

Below the Wing level, there are Groups. On a typical air base, you'll have the Operations Group, Mission Support Group, Medical Group, Legal Group, and possibly others that escape me right now.

The medical and legal groups are pretty much self-explanatory. The Operations Group is broken down into several Flying Squadrons, plus the Operations Support Squadron for all the things needed to run the airfield (Base Ops to file flight plans and such, Air Traffic Control, and the weather station).

Most everything else falls under the Mission Support Group: security forces / military police, communications & computers, civil engineers, supply & logistics, etc., etc., and the Mission Support Squadron that has the base personnel & finance offices (what used to be called the Consolidated Base Personnel Office, and you still hear the old guys say they "need to stop by CBPO on the way back from lunch", which confuses the younger kids to no end). Oh yeah, I think aircraft maintenance is a separate group.

Again, a future Star Fleet would modify this model to fit the mission and technology. The basic point is, the military has spent hundreds of years going back the Greeks and Romans figuring out the best way to build a cohesive command structure, and while there will be tweaks around the edges there will be no good reason for Star Fleet to dump it.

The big problem with DS9 and Babylon 5 is the writers failed to understand this, or simply chose to ignore it. For DS9, it does make some sense, for as I said above it was obvious to me that the Federation had a hot potato they didn't want, so they put a washed-up O-5 in command with little support staff is hopes that the whole project would fail, and they could wash their hands of Bajor once and for all. There's no excuse for B5 to not have a proper command structure.

~~~~~~~~~~~

Darkwing: I know that the Navy has a Defense Legal Service that is separate from JAG, just as the Air Force has the Area Defense Counsel as a separate entity. The local JAG office does work for the wing-king, but the ADC does not. I asked my wife (she's retired Navy), and she said the Navy didn't have the DLS when she joined back in the early 80's. So, perhaps the TV show did actually get it right for the times.

Going a bit off-topic: Something the USAF and Navy both added recently is a third legal office as the Victim's Legal Counsel. It's such a great idea. If a case goes to trial, you have the JAG on one side, the ADC / DLS on the other, but there wasn't anyone to walk the victim of a violent crime (such as sexual assault) thru the process. Now she has that legal advice.

 

Re: Creating a realistic crew manifest for a Starship. Ideas & comment

Been doing a little of research and while I haven't quite got a handle on the officers (there seems be crossover designators with elements of 2nd and 3rd Divisions) the enlisted ratings for the US Coast Guard (which Starfleet seems to have at least much in common with as the US Navy) do sort of line-up with the three Divisions used by Starfleet:

1) Deck and Weapons: Boatswain's Mate [BM] (General hands, small boats etc (shares Flight Ops in SF?)); [Maritime] Law Enforcement Specialist [LE] (Security Guard); Gunner's Mate [GM] (Armory, Ship's Weapons Operators); Operations Specialist [OS] (Comms Operator), Intel Specialist [IS] (Security and Intel Analyst), problably merge in Aviation Survivial Technician [AST] from USCG Aviation Group. With the exception of the BM's and ASTs (who would report to the "First Lieutenant"), most of the above would likely report to the Ship's Security Officer and so includes elements of both Command and Operations in the traditional SF structure.

2) Admin and Sciences: Health Sciences (HS); [Marine] Science Technican [MST], Musician [MU], Public Affairs Specialist [PA] (Media relations); Storekeeper [SK] (logistics and supply), Food Service Specialist [FS] [cooks, waiters, nutritionists]; Yeoman [secretary, human resources co-ordinator. Elements of both Sciences and Operations in Starfleet structure, staff corps functions not found in the CG (but present in the USN,) such as Legalman and Religious specialists would probably be in this Division or a 'Fourth Division' as might groups like the Corps of Engineers. Transporters could be under this Division (as part of Logistics and Supply) or a technicial trade under "Third Division".

3) Engineering and Hull: Damage Controlman [DC] (general repairs [esp emergency], fire-fighting, NBCR defense, construction); Electrician's Mate (electrical systems), Electronics Technician (supports OS, IS, and GMs from 1st Division), Avionics Electrical Technician & Aviation Maintenance Technician (from USCG Aviation Group). This Division would report to the Chief Engineer.

Another question, is Flight Control in space more like at sea, in which case enlisted men (either BMs or Crewman trained by them) would man the helm, or is it like in fixed wing aviation (in which case it's a (junior?) officer's billet which may cross over with Officer of the Watch (as fixed wing pilots 'command' the cockpit.

I think I probably favour the latter despite generally thinking naval structures are the way to go for starships, but I can see the arguements either way.

Shamrock Holmes

 

Re: Creating a realistic crew manifest for a Starship. Ideas & comment

Well, Trek cannon always puts a junior officer at the helm. I can think of one time (ST:TMP) in which they had a female Chief jump into the seat at the helm after the probe transported Ilia out. Indeed, there are very few examples of enlisted troops in all of the known Trek universe.

As you probably already guessed by my avatar icon, that fact pains me to no end.

Which is why in my world, the helm/nav stations are usually occupied by enlisted Quartermasters. That's not to say they don't put junior officers there as part of their overall training, and I've done that in a couple of my stories.

 

Re: Creating a realistic crew manifest for a Starship. Ideas & comment

The option of an enlisted Quartermaster (or combination Quartermaster/Boatswain (as in the US Coast Guard)) manning the controls of the ship and/or as Navigator (and Weapons Officer?) is certainly an option, protocol - particularly in 'Earth Starfleet' and the 24th C - appears to combine the roles of Junior Officer, Conning Officer, Quartermaster, Boatswain's Mate & Helmsman - which given that the computer is (in theory) capable of acting as Helmsman by itself (tho mostly due to verbal commands from ship's personnel) that the broad range of responsibilities and skills required of the Flight Control Officer (especially if they also act as Duty Officer) would suggest that it is better suited to a Commissioned Officer than a junior Enlisted man.

By contrast, I don't think there's any reason to think that the majority of the 'off-bridge' work (especially in the Deck, Security and Engineering Departments) isn't conducted by Crewmen, Crewmen 1st Class (generic 'ensigns') and Leading Crewmen or Chiefs (generic 'lieutenants') rather than officers as suggested by canon.

Shamrock Holmes

 

Re: Creating a realistic crew manifest for a Starship. Ideas & comment

Part of the reason the ranks are as they are, Gene Roddenberry was a cop. He was in the Navy before then, if memory serves, but he blended the rank structure of military and cops. As a cop, one can be a Police Officer for 20+ years and never get promoted. Can't do that in the military with the "up or out" policies. But any cop can get promoted up the ranks to Sgt, LT, Capt, Commander, and finally to Chief. Ergo, in his view of the Trek world, Roddenberry said Star Fleet personnel all started as Ensigns and could stay that rank forever, or go on to Lieutenant (no mention of LT-jg in ST:TOS/ST:TAS), Lt-Cmdr, Commander, Captain, Commodore, and Admiral. If that's how you want to have things work in your world, great, your stories will fit established canon. Some folks, myself included, choose to go a different route to be "realistic". Neither of us are any more "right" or "wrong" than the other, as long as we're both consistent within our own worlds.

 

Re: Creating a realistic crew manifest for a Starship. Ideas & comment

Actually, according to the material I have, he was USAAC crash investigator (2nd Lt, Air Medal, Distinguished Flying Cross) then after a stint at PanAm (where he survived his third plane crash (second as crew)) before enlisting in the LAPD as a traffic cop and then Public Information finishing as the CoP's speechwriter.

It's interesting to me that he appears to ignore the contributions of the enlisted cadre given that the LAPD has the one of the largest ones in the US law enforcement with four different ranks (nominally Private, Corporal, Master (?) Corporal, Sergeant and Staff Sergeant according to Army useage) across nine different paygrades). I think it's at least as likely that it comes from his time in the AAC where I would assume (like the modern USAF) most of the frontline work (esp combat) was/is done by officers.

Any thoughts?

Shamrock Holmes

 

Re: Creating a realistic crew manifest for a Starship. Ideas & comment

Proving, once and for all, that the Air Force has the most intelligent enlisted corps. {big grin}

 

Re: Creating a realistic crew manifest for a Starship. Ideas & comment

Could we use the fact that the 'Command' star used in the TOS for COs, Helmsmen, Navigators and Armory is the same as that on the MACO patch (which also served as Security) to suggest that the TOS 'gold shirts' should include BMs/QMs, GMs, MAs, OS & IS? Not sure about Administrative Group ratings like PA, SK, FS & YN tho? They could either be a separate rating, merged with Engineering as Support Services or Sciences & Medical as a Staff Corps? Or Both?

- Shamrock

 

Re: Creating a realistic crew manifest for a Starship. Ideas & comment

Yeah, sounds okay.

The Yeoman (YN) ratings all seemed to be in support red as well as the personnel officer we saw in Court Martial. BM, QM probably wear the yellow. O'Brien referred to himself as a Senior Chief Operations Specialist at one point and was grouped with support. Can't recall what the phaser officer we saw in Balance of Terror was wearing, but Off-hand think he was in support red.