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Old October 21 2013, 06:29 PM   #76
Cookies and Cake
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Re: Star Trek Concepts Originating in TAS

From TAS: The Survivor:

ANNE: But you did survive. You're alive, and we're together again.
CARTER: Anne, I'm changed. First there was surgery, skin graft, regrowth of bone. After they put me together, they assigned one of their people to me, and he nursed me back to health.
ANNE: But, you said you've changed. How? I don't see any change.
CARTER: It's over between us, Anne. I'm sorry, I can't explain why but, I can't marry you. Ever.
It always sounded to me like he was hinting that he's now impotent, which in and of itself was and I think still is pretty edgy for a Saturday morning cartoon.
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Old October 21 2013, 07:00 PM   #77
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Re: Star Trek Concepts Originating in TAS

Well, he was hinting that he was actually a shapeshifting alien spy who couldn't risk letting Anne get too close lest she realize he wasn't who he pretended to be, and so he had to make excuses to push her away. I don't see any reason to read anything more into it than that.
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Old October 21 2013, 07:12 PM   #78
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Re: Star Trek Concepts Originating in TAS

Christopher wrote: View Post
Well, he was hinting that he was actually a shapeshifting alien spy who couldn't risk letting Anne get too close lest she realize he wasn't who he pretended to be, and so he had to make excuses to push her away. I don't see any reason to read anything more into it than that.
He was hinting that he was a shapeshifter? Not at all. He was obviously trying to put her off before she could figure that out. Hinting that he was a shapeshifter was the last thing he was trying to do.

We can reasonably assume that talking about surgery was meant to paint in Anne's mind a picture that he was literally not the same man anymore, as the means of putting her off. That's not reading anything "into it"; it's really quite plainly given.
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Old October 21 2013, 08:11 PM   #79
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Re: Star Trek Concepts Originating in TAS

^I was speaking figuratively, of course. I'm a writer. We do that. What I mean is that that was his actual motivation, so all he really meant to say was "It's over and I can't explain why." I doubt an alien made mostly of tentacles would've really understood the concepts of human impotence or homosexuality or whatever enough to have the intent of implying such a thing. He was just saying "It's over and I can't explain why," with no subtext.
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Old October 21 2013, 08:59 PM   #80
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Re: Star Trek Concepts Originating in TAS

^ Yeah, I'm aware of what it means to speak figuratively. People who aren't professional writers also do that, and even know what it is by name.

As to your interpretation, I don't agree. Besides the fact that the Vendorian saw fit to mention surgery and a prolonged recovery, that he would have been incapable of suggesting a plausible explanation for breaking it off with Anne isn't really supported by other dialog in the episode:

CARTER: Winston crashed on our planet, and he was tended by a Vendorian. Me. He lived for almost a year before his body ceased to function.
ANNE: You are so much like him, his voice, his mannerisms.
CARTER: That is the way of our people. The longer we stay in another's form, the more we take on its memory, emotion, attitudes. Not totally, but a great deal as time passes.
ANNE: He did say he loved me.
CARTER: As I do. In a sense, I feel some of the emotions he felt. His love for you was very strong. Because I was there, it did not end when he died.
On the contrary, it seems rather likely that the Vendorian spy knew more than just a little about Carter's anatomy and what it would mean to be involved romantically with Anne. Incidentally, the Vendorian says something that could be fairly interpreted, though of course not necessarily, as suggesting his own impotence.
KIRK: Why did you do it?
ALIEN: Among my own people, I am a non-producer, useless. An outcast fit only to do those tasks of the lowest order. The Romulans offered me a life, something of value I could do. It is important to be of value to someone.
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Old October 21 2013, 09:05 PM   #81
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Re: Star Trek Concepts Originating in TAS

I was fourteen when I first watched "The Survivor" and I was certainly well aware of what being gay was, along with all the sterotypes that many people subscribed to. At no point from the onset did I ever get the impression that the Vendorian (as Carter Winston) could be trying to suggest he might be gay to Ann Nored. Now if you saw this episode for the first time decades after its original broadcasts then it's possible you might get that idea, but I think that has more to do with what one could be projecting onto the scene rather then what is actually there or intended by the writers.
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Old November 2 2013, 06:10 PM   #82
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Re: Star Trek Concepts Originating in TAS

Getting back to the question of whether TAS was intended for children, here are some quotes from Lou Scheimer: Creating the Filmation Generation by the late Mr. Scheimer and Andy Mangels (pp. 96-7):

Despite the direction of our earlier proposal [involving a cadet crew trained by the main cast], we didn't want to do a children's version of Star Trek, and neither did Gene.

In June 1973, Norm [Prescott, Filmation co-producer] was interviewed for a Newspaper Enterprise Association story about Star Trek, in which he said, "This is the first attempt to do an adult show in animation. Never before has an adult audience been challenged to watch a Saturday morning show. We feel it is a bold experiment." [Director] Hal Sutherland added, "The problem is that kids have not had a choice on Saturday morning. We're going to find out if they'll go for more sophistication."
...
About the only thing we couldn't do that the live-action show did was the sexy stuff. The way that some of those ladies looked on the original shows and the implications that Kirk was constantly having sex with them [sic]... well, that wouldn't have flown with the network, creative control or not!
I should add that, according to Scheimer, the contract with NBC granted Roddenberry and Filmation complete creative control, and Roddenberry was more directly overseeing the series than I'd thought. If Scheimer's recollection was accurate, that would suggest that, despite Roddenberry's later attempts to distance himself from TAS, at the time it probably represented his unadulterated "vision" for Star Trek as much as anything (allowing for the toned-down sex and violence).
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Old November 4 2013, 12:18 PM   #83
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Re: Star Trek Concepts Originating in TAS

Christopher wrote: View Post
If Scheimer's recollection was accurate, that would suggest that, despite Roddenberry's later attempts to distance himself from TAS, at the time it probably represented his unadulterated "vision" for Star Trek as much as anything (allowing for the toned-down sex and violence).
This would explain many things, IMHO. There are so many "essential" Trek ideas in TAS that I found it unlikely that the TAS producers had come up with these by themselves (unless they were really die-hard Trek aficionados).

However, the recurring depiction of alien monsters was definitely targeted at younger audiences.

Bob
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Old November 4 2013, 01:26 PM   #84
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Re: Star Trek Concepts Originating in TAS

The idea in TAS 'Counter-Clock Incident' where people age backwards was repeated in VOY - 'Innocence'
I thought this whole concept was ridiculed when it was in TAS as being ridiculous.
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Old November 4 2013, 01:50 PM   #85
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Re: Star Trek Concepts Originating in TAS

Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
However, the recurring depiction of alien monsters was definitely targeted at younger audiences.
Why would you think that? TOS itself frequently featured monsters -- the Salt Vampire, the Gorn, the Horta, the Mugato, the space amoeba, etc. Monsters and bizarre aliens were a staple of screen SF at the time; The Outer Limits featured them on a weekly basis. True, these were to some extent aimed at younger viewers, but no less so in TOS than in TAS. (In the '70s, Daniel Cohen published a children's book called The Monsters of Star Trek, populated entirely with creatures from the live-action series.) The only difference, as stated, is that TAS wasn't limited by real-world budgetary or physical limitations, so the monsters could be more elaborate than some guy in a rubber suit.


CommishSleer wrote: View Post
The idea in TAS 'Counter-Clock Incident' where people age backwards was repeated in VOY - 'Innocence'
I thought this whole concept was ridiculed when it was in TAS as being ridiculous.
"Counter-Clock" was ridiculous on many more levels besides that one. Every Trek series has its duds and embarrassments.
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Old November 4 2013, 04:31 PM   #86
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Re: Star Trek Concepts Originating in TAS

Christopher wrote: View Post
CommishSleer wrote: View Post
The idea in TAS 'Counter-Clock Incident' where people age backwards was repeated in VOY - 'Innocence'
I thought this whole concept was ridiculed when it was in TAS as being ridiculous.
"Counter-Clock" was ridiculous on many more levels besides that one. Every Trek series has its duds and embarrassments.
I didn't mind the 'Counter-Clock Incident'. It was a pretty exciting episode. I don't want to look at it too closely though.
I may be remembering this wrong but in the ADF logs didn't he dismiss this and one other TAS episode as a dream or something.
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Old November 4 2013, 07:42 PM   #87
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Re: Star Trek Concepts Originating in TAS

^Foster added a sequel story in the same volume in which the events of the episode, as well as of the sequel story itself, were revealed to have been an illusion generated as a test. But no other episode was involved.
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Old November 6 2013, 11:49 AM   #88
Robert Comsol
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Re: Star Trek Concepts Originating in TAS

Christopher wrote: View Post
Robert Comsol wrote: View Post
However, the recurring depiction of alien monsters was definitely targeted at younger audiences.
Why would you think that? TOS itself frequently featured monsters -- the Salt Vampire, the Gorn, the Horta, the Mugato, the space amoeba, etc. Monsters and bizarre aliens were a staple of screen SF at the time.
I'd say that the Salt Vampire, the Gorn, the Horta and others qualify as bizarre aliens with the Mugato being obviously an indigenous predator.

But that's quite a difference to the large TAS "monsters" whose sole purpose seemed to have been to threaten, swallow or crush the protagonists or their vehicles. Considering these rock monsters from "Mudd's Passion" I'd like to believe that "Galaxy Quest" paid its own form of tribute to these.

Bob
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Old November 6 2013, 03:03 PM   #89
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Re: Star Trek Concepts Originating in TAS

Yeah, monsters for the sake of being monsters is more the realm of Star Wars.
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