Admiral Jarok, the Norkan massacre and Romulan isolation

Regardless of whether that interpretation is true or not, it has nothing to do with what Riker stated. He said that nobody (or at least the Federation) knew anything about the Romulans for the last 50 years other than information that couldn't be verified as fact. But that's not true at all. The Khitomer massacre was verified to have been the doing of the Romulans by none other than a member of the Ent-D's own bridge crew! The only way Riker's statement would make sense is if Worf kept the knowledge of who attacked the planet a secret from Starfleet and his own fellow officers until after TNZ, something which he would have no reason whatsoever to do.

 

Not quite. Riker never mentioned 50 years - so his words should literally be taken to mean that nobody knew anything about the Romulans since Creation and before. Which is silly and tells us Riker's words can't be taken literally.

Moreover, Riker is responding to Picard's two questions: "Why now?" and "What's their objective?". If he's trying to answer those questions with his response, then he is probably factually quite correct that rumors and guesswork is the limit of the UFP ability to establish Romulan motivations and intentions. After all, the UFP never found out why Khitomer was attacked and what the Romulan objective there was! (We still don't know, unless we read novels.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

Riker mentions that there had been no direct contact since the Tomed Incident. Picard then qualifies that statement by saying that there's been no contact for 50 years. Pretty cut and dried, here.

Yes, they did know. It was attacked because a Klingon traitor who was loyal to the Romulans gave them the info they needed to launch a sneak attack. The objective was to kill Klingons. And their objective has nothing to do with the OP about the Federation not knowing anything about the Romulans' activities for 50 years.

 

That's not what he meant. The UFP knew how Khitomer was attacked, but it's never been made clear why the attack was sanctioned by Romulus in the first place. The novels have speculated that the Tal Shair (via Koval) learned of a secret Klingon weapons depot hidden within the outpost and tried to destroy it. But nothing's ever been substantiated by on-screen dialogue or events. All we know is that Ja'rod (father of Duras) provided his access code so that the Romulans could lower Khitomer's shields before firing. Worf and his caregiver survived the attack. We know what happened from there.

--Sran

 

I understand that. However, my point was that the reasons for the attack are a nonsequitor as far as the OP is concerned. I was arguing that the Federation did know information about Romulan activities despite what was mentioned in TNZ.

 

I've always interpreted Picard and Riker's statements as broad generalizations about the Romulan's absence from galactic politics following the Tomed Incident. That they weren't dealt with by the UFP for fifty years doesn't mean nothing happened during the time in question. The USS Intrepid responded to Khitomer's distress call and arrived following the attack, but we don't know if they actually encountered Romulan ships.

Based on "Sins of the Father," it sounds like the Khitomer outpost was wiped out fairly quickly (the shields were down). The Intrepid was at the edge of sensor range when the attack occurred as indicated by Data's review of the logs from the day of the attack. There's no mention of their having sighted actual Romulan ships. They probably ID'ed the Romulans as culprits based on residual weapons signatures and any Klingon sensor data that was salvaged from the Khitomer wreckage.

The Enterprise-C encountered at least four Romulan ships while trying to defend Narendra III from attack. It's not clear what the Romulans were doing in that system, nor do we know if their failure to destroy the outpost was in any way related to the eventual attack on Khitomer, as this happened two years later. Aside from these incidents, the Romulans seemed to have dealings only with the Klingons while they were attending to internal matters. Given the proximity of Klingon space to Romulan territory, it's not a surprise that the two governments would continue sparring even as the Romulans sought to isolate themselves.

For all we know, the isolation was brought on by repeated incidents with the Klingons. That the Federation was involved with the Tomed Incident may have been the last straw, but that doesn't mean there weren't other things that led up to it.

--Sran

 

Yeah, that was pretty much the ST Chronology's interpretation too: that although the Federation and the Romulans didn't have direct contact, the Romulans did have contact with the Klingons. My issue however, is Riker's "rumor and conjecture" comment, and the overall feel in TNZ that *nobody* had heard a peep out of the Romulans for 50 years.

 

Considering the blur of evil Romulan activity starting with the second season, "barely a whisper" is probably a good characterization of the past fifty years in comparison...

...Which applies to everything relevant about the Romulans. So they come and strike a planet, then disappear again? That's not information, that's an enigma.

Even in the final years of TNG, nobody really knows anything about the Romulans - only about their activities, which make about as much sense as those of North Korea.

The terminology they use is dissimilar, however. Picard doesn't mention "contact", direct or otherwise; his "barely a whisper" could well be a softer category of ignorance, with the hard core of "no direct contact" only applying to a fraction of the half a century.

Timo Saloniemi

 

No, it is information about their activities. It is more than "rumor and conjecture" when Worf describes the Romulans' actions to Korris and Konmel.

It is obvious that when Riker says "last contact=Tomed Incident" and Picard says "barely a whisper=50 years," they're referring to the same thing.

 

It isn't relevant or helpful information, as it's not Romulan activities that are of interest to our heroes, it's Romulan motivations. It's quite like saying "All we know about Batman is rumors and speculation" when one has photographs of the man in action, witness statements on how it feels to be punched in the jaw by him, and a list of crimes he has thwarted - factually correct in every relevant sense.

At most, it's among the probable interpretations. In terms of this one episode, that is; in context, it's not among the probable interpretations any more. It might just barely qualify as being among the possible interpretations, though.

Timo Saloniemi

 

It sure the hell is relevant and helpful information that the Romulans are still aggressive and prone to unprovoked attacks even after 50 years of no contact. That's a lot more info about them than "rumor and speculation."

What? No it's not. The interpretation is clear as day. The Tomed Incident took place 50 years before TNZ, and there was no Federation contact since then. The way Riker and Picard phrased their conversation isn't ambiguous at all.