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Go Back   The Trek BBS > Entertainment & Interests > Science Fiction & Fantasy > Doctor Who

Doctor Who "Bigger on the inside..."

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Old July 27 2014, 02:43 PM   #16
Stevil2001
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Re: Which novels should become Big Finish audio dramas?

Nightowl1701 wrote: View Post
I've never read the New Adventures series myself, but I was led to believe it had been all-but-decanonized by the events of NuWho. (The Eighth Doctor BBC novels, if I remember right, had been dismissed as 'alternate universe.')
I'm curious-- what gave you this impression? I don't remember anything "decanonizing" the NAs or shunting the EDAs into an alternate universe.

Emperor-Tiberius wrote: View Post
And Love & War is as essential as the Lost Stories, IMO. And its such a glorious story, too.
I'd say that Love and War is better at capturing the Cartmel era than anything Cartmel has actually been involved in after 1990.
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Old July 27 2014, 07:07 PM   #17
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Re: Which novels should become Big Finish audio dramas?

The New Adventures, I've been told, rely heavily on the 'Cartmel Masterplan' developed in the show's final years. In fact, the finale Lungbarrow was the intended culmination of the CM and intended all along to be Seven's last adventure. Large parts of it (like the genetic Looms, Time Lords being 'born' as full-grown asexual adults, the fate of Ace, and how the Doctor fled Gallifrey/met Susan) have been explicitly thrown out by NuWho and/or Big Finish.

The Short Trips novel Repercussions revealed Sam Jones (the Eighth Doctor's first BBC novel companion) had been removed from time by Eight himself to prevent the havoc her presence had wreaked through the timeline (Faction Paradox, Three regenerating early, Gallifrey exploding, Compassion, the TARDIS being destroyed/regrowing itself, Miranda etc). Hence, he literally erased the entire BBC novel line himself - he may (or may not) remember it, but it no longer plays a role in his history or anyone else's.
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Old July 27 2014, 07:20 PM   #18
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Re: Which novels should become Big Finish audio dramas?

I think you're exaggerating. Yes, there don't seem to be Looms according to the new series, but I'm sure there's a workaround. Big Finish and the NAs and DWM all contradict each other on the fate of Ace; I'm not sure why the NAs version should count as "non-canonical" because BF doesn't go with it. They're both spin-off series, and neither "outranks" the other.

Gary Russell had that weird idea that BF and the BBC Books took place in alternate realities, but I'd say there's more evidence against it than for it. You've pointed out a number of ways BF uses stuff from the novels, and there are plenty more (The Company of Friends, Dark Eyes 2, many appearances of the Selachians...).
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Old July 27 2014, 11:06 PM   #19
The Borgified Corpse
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Re: Which novels should become Big Finish audio dramas?

Emperor-Tiberius wrote: View Post
Spiral Scratch[/I], the Sixth Doctor's regeneration story. I know it might be controversial, given how its full Garry Russel-isms, but its worthy of production just for the regeneration scene alone.
As someone who is only lightly familiar with his work, please tell me, what are "Gary Russell-isms"?

Nightowl1701 wrote: View Post
I'm a little confused. I've never read the New Adventures series myself, but I was led to believe it had been all-but-decanonized by the events of NuWho. (The Eighth Doctor BBC novels, if I remember right, had been dismissed as 'alternate universe.') But between Love & War, the recent Bernice boxset and now Damaged Goods, and no one calling them 'Unbound,' it's looking more and more like some version of it did happen.
Beyond "Lungbarrow," are there any other New Adventures that are explicitly contradicted by the new series? I'm not aware of any, although I admittedly have only read a handful.

The 8th Doctor BBC novels are definitely not canon! In those novels Gallifrey gets destroyed in a completely different way and the Doctor ends up losing his 2nd heart. Those are some major plot points that are frequently referenced throughout the BBC novels. It's pretty much impossible to reconcile those books with the new TV series without a time travel reboot like it seems they did in "Repercussions." (That sounds pretty clever actually and might even settle an argument about "The Day of the Doctor" to boot.)



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Nightowl1701 wrote: View Post
While the novel has Delgado's Master on the cover, I see no reason the audio version couldn't be retconned into a pre-Delgado version.
Except that a) numero uno suspect for a pre-Delgado Master (and thus the one it'd work best with) was Edward Brayshaw as the War Chief, and Brayshaw's also too dead to take part, and b) he's a good guy at that point, so new casting wouldn't really sell what he'll become.
Much as I would have liked the War Chief to be the Master and as much as that kinda works, they're not the same person. Terrance Dicks made this explicitly clear in "Timewyrm: Exodus."

Speaking of, the Nazi Germany time travel antics of "Timewrym: Exodus" would make for an interesting audio story. You might need to excise the Timewyrm from the story but that wouldn't be too hard.
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Old July 27 2014, 11:44 PM   #20
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Re: Which novels should become Big Finish audio dramas?

The Borgified Corpse wrote: View Post

Much as I would have liked the War Chief to be the Master and as much as that kinda works, they're not the same person.
As I'm intimately aware...
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Old July 28 2014, 12:13 AM   #21
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Re: Which novels should become Big Finish audio dramas?

The Borgified Corpse wrote: View Post

Speaking of, the Nazi Germany time travel antics of "Timewrym: Exodus" would make for an interesting audio story. You might need to excise the Timewyrm from the story but that wouldn't be too hard.
Boy the books have the 7th doctor busy in that particular period - Illegal Alien, Timewyrm: Exodus and Just War (which was turned in a Bernice Summerfield audio).
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Old July 28 2014, 12:57 AM   #22
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Re: Which novels should become Big Finish audio dramas?

The lost 2nd heart's not a big deal. If I remember right (it was in a Missing Adventure somewhere), the Doctor didn't get a 2nd heart until he regenerated for the first time (from Hartnell to Troughton). So when he regenerated from McGann to Hurt, the 2nd heart would've simply grown back anyway. Fitting since he was rededicating himself to the Time Lords/Gallifrey. But I reckon Repercussions renders that moot.

The Borgified Corpse wrote: View Post
Beyond "Lungbarrow," are there any other New Adventures that are explicitly contradicted by the new series? I'm not aware of any, although I admittedly have only read a handful.
Human Nature, for obvious reasons. (If what I've heard about the original version was true, Bernice better pray she never runs into River Song...)

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Old July 28 2014, 08:41 AM   #23
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Re: Which novels should become Big Finish audio dramas?

As good as the episodes were the book Human Nature is much better so I always think of that as the true story.

I can't remember Benny doing anything in the book that would upset River Song though?
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Old July 28 2014, 09:38 PM   #24
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Re: Which novels should become Big Finish audio dramas?

I can't remember Benny doing anything that River might find objectionable in Human Nature either--but The Dying Days is quite another matter!
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Old July 28 2014, 09:43 PM   #25
Stevil2001
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Re: Which novels should become Big Finish audio dramas?

The Borgified Corpse wrote: View Post
The 8th Doctor BBC novels are definitely not canon! In those novels Gallifrey gets destroyed in a completely different way and the Doctor ends up losing his 2nd heart. Those are some major plot points that are frequently referenced throughout the BBC novels.
Yeah, but he grows a new second heart seven books later. And the stage is set for Gallifrey's restoration in the last book of the series. Neither of those events contradicts anything in the new series.
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Old August 1 2014, 09:16 PM   #26
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Re: Which novels should become Big Finish audio dramas?

I think it's Lance Parkin, in AHistory, who even postulates a way that the EDAs' destruction of Gallifrey could be the same one as referenced in the New Series. I think that theory was contradicted by "The Day of the Doctor," though.
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Old August 2 2014, 01:53 AM   #27
diankra
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Re: Which novels should become Big Finish audio dramas?

That's slightly separate (I'm guessing this is in the latest edition of AHistory, I'm an edition or two back); but in the last mainline 8th Doctor book, Lance's The Gallifrey Chronicles, he sets up the clues as to how the Doctor can bring Gallifrey back just in time for it to be destroyed by whatever leads up to Russell T's new series (basically, the Time Lords' minds were stored in the Matrix which was stored in the Doctor's head; recreating the planet and their bodies is just a minor matter of molecular reconstruction, the sort of thing they got on top of when the universe was less than half its present size).
So no contradiction there.
Lots of contradictions elsewhere by now, but not there!
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Old August 7 2014, 02:49 AM   #28
The Borgified Corpse
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Re: Which novels should become Big Finish audio dramas?

^Like what?

Stevil2001 wrote: View Post
The Borgified Corpse wrote: View Post
The 8th Doctor BBC novels are definitely not canon! In those novels Gallifrey gets destroyed in a completely different way and the Doctor ends up losing his 2nd heart. Those are some major plot points that are frequently referenced throughout the BBC novels.
Yeah, but he grows a new second heart seven books later. And the stage is set for Gallifrey's restoration in the last book of the series. Neither of those events contradicts anything in the new series.
Oh. OK. I've been reading those books sporadically and way out of order. And I kinda quit the 8th Doctor for a while after the long, confusing slog that was "The Adventuress of Henrietta Street." (My biggest beef with it: Although the entire thing is written as if it's a history book, there's no explanation as to who wrote it or what their perspective or agenda is.)

BTW, I still haven't gotten an answer to my question: What are "Gary Russell-isms"?
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Old August 7 2014, 10:25 PM   #29
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Re: Which novels should become Big Finish audio dramas?

I'm not Emperor-Tiberius, but I find that Gary Russell has a tendency to drown his stories in continuity references, so perhaps that was what he meant.
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