Roddenberry's Worst Ideas

Discussion in 'General Trek Discussion' started by ZapBrannigan, Mar 16, 2013.

  1. Count Zero

    Count Zero No nation but procrastination Moderator

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    Ok, horatio83, sonak and stj, you have repeatedly derailed this thread from its original topic towards today's politics with a tenuous link at best to what was being discussed at the time. I realise that contemporary examples are sometimes necessary to make a point but you went way beyond that more than once. Try to stay on topic. You, horatio83, have been cautioned against that already and more than once so I'd suggest you cut it out.

    If anyone feels the need to have a discussion about left-wing vs. right-wing, libertarianism, economic theory of the 20th century and identity politics, feel free to do so in Miscellaneous or TNZ. I might even participate.


    To get a bite more back on topic:

    That's not true. In The Squire of Gothos there is a German science officer called Jäger who reacts somewhat indignantly at Trelane's assumption that he's a soldier. I always thought that was a nice touch.
     
  2. horatio83

    horatio83 Commodore Commodore

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    Ehm, the topic is Roddenberry's worst ideas and "no money" clearly is a Roddenberryian idea. We are not derailing the thread but digging a bit deeper.

    This is what I call moderating when it clearly isn't necessary. Nobody has been insulted, nobody plays some stupid "my party is better than yours" game or whatever. It is impossible to not become political when talking about these elements of Trek ... unless one wants the discussion to purely focus on trivial matters.
     
  3. Count Zero

    Count Zero No nation but procrastination Moderator

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    You were digging deeper but you (i.e. the general you) were also going off on tangents only strenuously linked to the discussion at hand, if that.

    The first one started off from this post (I won't quote all posts because that would make this post unreadable):
    But you brought it back on topic, and if that had been the only occurrence, I wouldn't have said anything. These things happen.

    But then the next tangent occurred, starting with this post, which has nothing to do with Roddenberry's ideas but is a rant about conservatives. Which is a legitmate topic but not in this sub-forum.


    Eventually, the thread got back on topic. Then it got off on a tangent for the third time with this exchange:

    I then decided to say something and remind people to stay more on topic.


    Well, the disdain for people on the right was pretty evident in some posts but thankfully no flaming or trolling took place, I agree. But those aren't the only things moderators should look out for.


    Yes, and I said that in my post. But there's a difference between that and going off on tangents. Just try to maintain a link to the overall topic in your posts and it's fine. I hope the examples above give you a better idea of what I meant.
     
  4. robau

    robau Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    I'll point out again that even in the utopia you have to work your way up to the job you love. That's why there would still be a filing clerk type position.
     
  5. Third Nacelle

    Third Nacelle Captain Captain

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    Don't underestimate boredom. If we lived in a world where you could do nothing all day except replicate breakfast and play in the holodeck, how long could you actually do that?

    I'm sure there are some people who would be content to be idle, but most of us would go crazy with boredom after a few weeks. We have an instinctive drive to be active and useful.
     
    Last edited: May 1, 2013
  6. Melakon

    Melakon Admiral In Memoriam

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    I had to stop working over ten years ago for health reasons, and the biggest problem I have now is there's no sense of having a regular routine anymore. It's compounded because I don't own a vehicle and can't afford to go anywhere for a change of scenery. I'm either at home all the time, or walking no more than a few blocks to get anywhere. I've ridden the light rail from one end of the line to the other (less than 8 miles) but that's the farthest I've been anywhere since 1995. Not exactly utopia.
     
  7. stj

    stj Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Perhaps this was overlooked:
    The overwhelming majority of these people offer no arguments or facts, relying on their personal authority as the Voice of God or something. In one sense, all good science fiction is about the present (the bad is about other fiction, I think.) Refusal to discuss what the present really is, also derails discussion of what Star Trek was about.

    In practice, political conservatism is (incorrectly) conceived as the natural, God-given point of view. The moral postures of political conservatism underly the critique of Star Trek's future economy and society. That is, they are the motive for conceiving Roddenberry's moneyless society as his worst mistake. Discussion of political conservatism is directly relevant to the topic. And, the discussion of the scientific validity of academic economics which support it, is directly relevant as well.

    But it is quite obvious the real problem is not irrelevance, but too much relevance. However, as directed, discussion is now terminated.
     
  8. TheGoodNews

    TheGoodNews Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    Remember, Marx talked about "the end of History," wherein human civilization will reach its logical or most rational conclusion...communism (in the literal/doctrinal sense). The Federation can at least be compared to this. Where everyone is free and equal in a mutualistic rather than materialistic society.

    "The Culture didn't use money, as such. But it also didn't want to be too extravagant with matter and energy either. (So inelegant to be wasteful)." The Player of Games by Iain Banks.

    "Human beings were trying to behave as human beings and not as cogs in the capitalist machine." George Orwell - Homage to Catalonia.
     
  9. TheGoodNews

    TheGoodNews Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    But keep in mind that you wouldn't necessarily be idle and would have the freedom to engage in activities that interested you. If the resources and opportunities are available, then the sky would be the limit!

    It's the need to work to make ends meet and the unhealthy power relations and work place politics, not to mention economic uncertainies, that we are still vulnerable to. Overcome these and a new situation emerges.

    It's as anthropologist David Graeber describes:

    "The struggle against work always been central to anarchist organizing. By this I mean, not the struggle for better worker conditions or higher wages, but the struggle to eliminate work, as a relation of domination, entirely. Hence the IWW slogan 'against the wage system.'" David Graeber - Fragments of an Anarchist anthropology.

    or this:

    "Especially if we bear in mind that it's not like anyone would be forced to stop working after four hours it they didn't feel like it. A lot of people do enjoy their jobs, certainly more than they would lounging around doing nothing all day (that's why in prisons, when they want to punish inmates, they take away their right to work), and if one has elminated the endless indignities and sadomasochistic games that inevitably follow from top-down organization, one would expect a lot more would. It might even turn out that no one will have to work more than they particularly want to." David Graeber - Fragments of an Anarchist anthropology.
     
  10. Nightdiamond

    Nightdiamond Commodore Commodore

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    "Working to better ourselves and the rest of humanity" is definitely a socialist idea, although not hardcore.

    The food, clothing, and etc, are all provided automatically by replicators and machines (which may be provided by the government.) (Picard said no need or want.)

    And you have to wonder if the earth government made this decision for the people, or if the people voted to do this.
    (I tend to believe the people voted for it)

    They can enjoy these things fine as long as they reside on earth, but if they leave it to join a culture that trades goods for currency--they'll be helpless.

    Trek doesn't say all of this outright, but it is strongly suggested. As I pointed out, Jake Sisko says as a human he doesn't have any money.

    He wants to "buy"-- actually purchase an item from someone on the station. He cant. He doesn't even have a few credits, absolutely nothing.

    As a human he lives off replicators, which provide what he wants.

    So earth is like some sort of garden of Eden that you have to live in to enjoy, but step out of it, and you're into the wilderness of money, working, and paying bills.

    This is all theory, that I pieced to together but it does fit in certain places.

    Notice how other cultures know about replicators, and they still trade in currency, and they have a definite concept of being poor.
     
  11. Hartzilla2007

    Hartzilla2007 Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Which kind of ties into Sisko's rant in The Maquis about how it's easy to be a saint in the federation's utopian paradise but not so easy on its fringes where it is neither a utopia or paradise. As the federation just comes off as seeming to not really get that the whole galaxy outside of it isn't sunshine and rainbows.
     
  12. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    depends on your "dream job." What if you want to be a poet or a teacher? Not all jobs have huge ladders of hierarchy.
     
  13. T'Girl

    T'Girl Vice Admiral Admiral

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    Societies do change over the course of history, sometime quite rapidly. So it is possible to imagine Humanity (or some portion of it) changing into the type of society where "bettering yourself was the primary goal." The problem is Sonak, what happen when the society changes yet again?

    You could envision a future society that had changed into a "all volunteer" system. People would volunteer their time, efforts and skills without anticipation of compensation. Goods would come from a machine or a individual/craftsman who would "donate" to you whatever you wish, the same with various donated services.

    But again, societies and cultures do change over time. Most (not all) would agree that certainly during the TOS time period money/compensation existed. There is no indication as to how long the "spirit of volunteerism" had existed (if it even did) prior to Encounter At Farpoint. In the time period of TNG-DS9-VOY you're only talking about a fourteen and a half year time interval in Human history, just as you can't tell how long the spirit of volunteerism had existed, you also don't know how long it will last.

    In order for your future society based upon this volunteerism to work over an extended period of time, the society you've described can never change. Not even over the course of centuries.

    Which seems unlikely.

    You have to admit horatio83, you were being deliberately snippy there. The only thing that prevented the statement from being actually insulting is that no one could possibly take it seriously.

    :)

    :)
     
  14. Count Zero

    Count Zero No nation but procrastination Moderator

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    Let's drop this particluar side discussion. There's no need to reheat this.
     
  15. yousirname

    yousirname Commander Red Shirt

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    I'm not seeing how this is truly 'a problem' You seem to be saying that in order for it to persist, it must persist. That's kind of trivial, no?
     
  16. sonak

    sonak Vice Admiral Admiral

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    there are two components to what I was saying:

    1. yes, a new culture of "volunteerism" and "social contribution" would emerge, BUT you forgot the important other part:

    2. post-scarcity As I and others have pointed out, it's really the technological utopianism of Star Trek's future, not its social environment, that allows its "moneyless society" at least some possibility


    once again, even if you're right, and a chunk of society decides "screw volunteerism, I'm going to lay on the couch and eat flamin' hot cheetos and drink root beer," SO WHAT? It's a society of abundant resources. We have large people now who "live on the dole" in some way or another and it hasn't brought the market economy crashing down.


    So some folks will reject volunteerism. This would not be the disaster that "ruins paradise" that you and others seem to think. Actually, many left-wing writers have taken into account in theorizing what a "utopian society" would look like, that some would reject it. And it's not really that big of a deal.
     
  17. horatio83

    horatio83 Commodore Commodore

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    Yep, I understand that you guys wanna keep politics in the TNZ. What about merely talking about the economics of Trek without delving into political economy, is this OK?
     
  18. Count Zero

    Count Zero No nation but procrastination Moderator

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    Yes, sure.

    Discussing politics is also ok in Miscellaneous, by the way (but with tighter rules ;)).
     
  19. robau

    robau Lieutenant Commander Red Shirt

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    If anything it's always too many people pursuing too much that inflates bubbles and causes crashes. The next big one is everyone irrationally cramming into higher education thanks to government loans. I'd rather a big chunk of those people be on basic welfare. I bet it would cost less than the inevitable bailouts.
     
  20. Mr. Laser Beam

    Mr. Laser Beam Fleet Admiral Admiral

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    Indeed. It can also be eaten cold. :p