DS9 Versus: A viewing experient - Page 17

Sykonee · October 26 2009, 08:13 AM

Week 2: (Ending 09.10.95)
VOY - Initiations (Airdate 09.04.95)

It's bizarre that it took this long for the series to finally do a Kazon-development story, considering they were more-or-less established as the main heavy way back in Caretaker. Up to this point, the two-episode appearing Vidiians were more developed. Heck, even some of the one-off cultures were more developed.

It's a reasonably good episode though -having Eisenberg play the role of a young Kazon certainly helps, as he's already proved capable of fleshing out an alien race with nuance. Yeah, it may be the same ol' "warrior culture" we've seen countless times in sci-fi, but I rather like the notion of them being a race that had to fight for their dominance after being subjected, and basically scraping around for technology to expand. It's kind of reminiscent of the Narn in B5.

Wait... VOY, stealing from B5? Oh dear, let the VOY-B5 wars erupt once aga- Eh, there weren't any such wars? Huh, go fig.

Weekly Winner
VOY

Next:
VOY - Projections

Seven Of Five · October 26 2009, 09:38 AM

Pemmer Harge wrote:

/\ I guess so, although that was just a normal Voyager episode that went horribly wrong, while those DS9 episodes kind of defy explanation. To be fair, Voyager does have at least two episodes like that - Fair Haven and Spirit Folk.

DevilEyes wrote:

Pemmer Harge wrote:

Sykonee wrote:

VOY may have had episodes like Ex Post Facto and Heroes And Demons, but it certainly did not have episodes like Meridian and Fascination. (yes, I liked the latter, but in the same way folks enjoy Ed Wood movies

It is true that there was a certain type of awful episode DS9 seemed to specialise in, but I find that if I watch something like Meridian or The Muse it's actually sort of entertaining - I can't help but watch and wonder "what were they thinking?". Whereas with a bad Voyager episode like Cathexis or The Fight I'm just bored to tears.

But you have to admit that there is at least one VOY episode - Threshold - that has to make you wonder "What were they thinking?" or rather "What were they smoking?"

I liked Voyager but it was so much more inconsistent than DS9, and I feel it had far more flat out bad episodes than DS9 too. It's much easier to do a Bottom 20 list of VOY episodes than for DS9.

But in all fairness, in this thread we're only at Voyager's first season, which still showed signs of promise. There were instances of conflict between Starfleet and Maquis, and the crew struggled with supplies and rationing. It all goes downhill at some point in season two though, whereas DS9 and B5 go from strength to strength.

Anyway, besides that I'm really enjoying the thread. I never watched B5 until a few years ago, and my watching of DS9 and VOY was done sporadically on VHS and TV. It's nice to understand the relationship between the three series when they actually aired, and to comprehend some of the different fandoms' POVs better by knowing the competition that their favourite series was up against.

Pemmer Harge · October 26 2009, 07:38 PM

Sykonee wrote:

Yeah, it may be the same ol' "warrior culture" we've seen countless times in sci-fi, but I rather like the notion of them being a race that had to fight for their dominance after being subjected, and basically scraping around for technology to expand. It's kind of reminiscent of the Narn in B5.

The Kazon, alas, had no G'Kar. I'm not even sure they had a Na'Toth...

Sykonee · October 27 2009, 04:48 AM

Pemmer Harge wrote:

The Kazon, alas, had no G'Kar. I'm not even sure they had a Na'Toth...

They had at least a Narn #3.

Week 3: (Ending 09.17.95)
VOY - Projections (Airdate 09.11.95)

Another one of those great episodes where, despite knowing the outcome, you're still kept guessing all the way through. It kind of style-bites TNG's Frame Of Mind, but then Braga wrote both so that's understandable. Hey, if it worked once, why not try it twice, right? I have to wonder if, after seeing how excellently Picardo could carry a whole episode, the writers realized this guy was going to be their go-to character for the really meaty episodes.

All in all, VOY's doing pretty well for itself out of the gate. With only three weeks to go before DS9 comes back with its Season Premiere (plus one more for B5's return), the show needs to build up as much momentum as it can. Can it maintain for the next two episodes?

Weekly Winner
VOY

Next:
VOY - Elogium

Sykonee · October 28 2009, 07:21 AM

Week 4: (Ending 09.24.95)
VOY - Elogium (Airdate 09.18.95)

I like Kes. I mean, I'm already a sucker for cute gals with blonde hair, but just the character herself. Her insatiable curiosity about what's out there is something I'm sure many a sci-fi fan can relate to, and Lien pulls it off well. What's not to love?

Well, the fact that she really hasn't had much of anything to do, at all. She's either Doc's assistant, Neelix's girlfriend, or... something else. They never seem to ever actually focus on her. And now, even though it appears we're finally going to get an episode about her (even if it's as ridiculous as this one is -"See! Drugged-Up Kes!!" Ugh....), what happens? We get a huge detour to focus on bloody Neelix for a while, and his reactions. Gads, he was already annoying enough during his petty jealous mode early on, but when fussing over having a child? I have to agree with with sfdebris' assessment of the guy: Grade-A Shithead. Kes seemed to be years more mature than him here. Split these two up now, for the love of God. (sadly wouldn't happen for another year *sigh*)

Oh, the other plot? Eh, can be summed up like this:
Alien. Tech. Tech. Tech. Alien. Tech. Tech. Sex joke. End. With word out that DS9's got a big ace up its sleeve for its Season Premiere, it can't get here fast enough if this is what we're going to have to put up with from VOY in the interim.

Weekly Winner
VOY

Next:
VOY - Non Sequitur

Sykonee · October 31 2009, 12:00 AM

Week 5: (Ending 10.01.95)
VOY - Non Sequitur (Airdate 09.25.95)

I remember watching this first run. It was the first VOY episode I'd watched since Eye Of The Needle, I think. Pretty much turned me off the series for a long, long time.

What else is there to say? Harry gets lost in some alternate time-thingamabob, runs around, hangs with reject-Paris... just dull, dull, dull, dull, dull, dull, dull. Man, VOY has not been making the best of its solo time here. Thank GOD DS9's back next week. It's lookin' to be a stormer of an episode!

Weekly Winner
VOY

Next:
DS9 - The Way Of The Warrior
VOY - Twisted

USS Bones · October 31 2009, 12:41 AM

The Way of the Warrior vs Twisted. Anyone's guess.

...

Eyes330 · October 31 2009, 12:33 PM

Ok, Non Sequitur is another of the ones that I think is underrated, especially as its about Kim, my favourite character, and I love there only being Kim and Paris, as I think their friendship was really well done on Voyager.

Anyway, next week, DS9 gets a new cast member from TNG and there's a huge Klingon battle, vs. the Voyager crew wandering about as the ship twists itself into an unrecognisable shape. Yeh, hard choice.

Iasius · November 1 2009, 12:56 AM

Yeah, Non Sequitor and The 37's are among my favorite VOY episodes. I realize that my favorite VOY episodes aren't exactly popular.

But then, that's quite clear, given that I actually like Spirit folk and Fair Haven in some ways.

(What, a Niner that likes some VOY episodes many people hate? Can't be!

)

DevilEyes · November 1 2009, 04:07 AM

Iasius wrote:

Yeah, Non Sequitor and The 37's are among my favorite VOY episodes. I realize that my favorite VOY episodes aren't exactly popular.

But then, that's quite clear, given that I actually like Spirit folk and Fair Haven in some ways.

(What, a Niner that likes some VOY episodes many people hate? Can't be!

)

I liked Emanations.

Sykonee · November 1 2009, 06:52 AM

Week 6: (Ending 10.08.95)
DS9 - The Way Of The Warrior (Airdate 10.02.95)
VOY - Twisted (Airdate 10.02.95)

And the bar has been raised yet again.

VOY didn't have a chance at all. WotW is an Event Episode of the highest order, trumping even the lackluster TNG movie from a year before in the stakes department. Can VOY even have such an episode at this point? With all the important political activities occuring in DS9 now (that is, 'important' if you're somewhat Alpha/Betta Quadrant biased

), the things going on VOY just seem quaint in comparison.

"Huh? Voyager got all twisted about? That's nice, dear. Say, did you know the Klingons are the bad guys again?"

In fact, DS9 raised the bar so high this week, that it completely lapped the other competitor in the process. B5 had been doing incredibly well in establishing itself as a show to be reckoned with, slowly building its arcs as events in the show continued to change over time. Yet, it never did to quite the same extent we saw in WotW, and especially so in such a swift, action-packed way. It does come back from its long hiatus next week, but B5's going to have to do something extraordinary to match with DS9's momentum. Last year it had Chrysalis -might it have something just as good in store for us this time?

Weekly Winner
DS9

Next:
DS9 - The Visitor
VOY - Parturition
B5 - Divided Loyalties

Pemmer Harge · November 1 2009, 11:22 AM

DS9's back, phew! The Way of the Warrior is very good. I love the spectacle of it and, although I think DS9 had some trouble making good use of Worf in season 4 as a whole, he's very well used here. I love the Dukat/Garak stuff as well - always good to see Alaimo and Robinson act opposite each other. Personally, I would rate Improbable Cause/The Die is Cast a bit higher than this one, but then I'm in the minority that preferred season 3 to season 4. My main gripe is not with the episode, which is top notch, but with the way it was followed up - the subsequent Klingon episodes of season 4 felt a bit anti-climactic after this and the Klingon plotline didn't really go anywhere until Broken Link (though it did provide us with the excellent Return to Grace).

I was going to scoff at your suggestion that DS9 had lapped B5 here, but remembering that this is the pre-Fall of Night, pre-Severed Dreams era it's more reasonable than I'd thought, though in the end Chrysalis and The Coming of Shadows still trump TWOTW for me as drama and as game-changing moments.

Pemmer Harge · November 3 2009, 08:29 PM

By the way, I was very disappointed to learn that B5 didn't put anything up against The Way of the Warrior and DS9 didn't put anything up against Severed Dreams. Spoilsports the lot of them!

Sykonee · November 3 2009, 11:50 PM

While I do agree that Chrysalis had more 'shaking up' of its universe going on than WotW, it didn't have nearly the same amount of high production gloss as DS9 did. Which is understandable, since WotW is a TV-movie, whereas Chrysalis was simply a one-hour episode. That's what I was getting at by the bar being set higher: if you're going to make a major impact on the TV sci-fi landscape, WotW was now the level to reach. (of course, B5 would definitely reach that bar, and surpass, but we're getting ahead of ourselves here

)

Seven Of Five · November 4 2009, 12:39 PM

I really like The Way of the Warrior - it's a top notch episode full of action that changes the landscape of DS9. When comparing it to B5 though, I feel that WotW lacks a little. When you look at the season finales of the first two seasons of B5, you feel that several fluid storylines throughout the season have gradually led us to that point. WotW however feels a bit left-field - Klingons suddenly becoming enemies again in a cynical move to attract more viewers. I can't argue that it wasn't well done, but it was quite a diversion from the Dominion arc that had been developing slowly.

I'll try and explain myself so that I don't sound like a total heretic, as I'm such a huge fan of DS9 as well as B5.

Though season 4 was DS9's strongest at that point, it didn't deal with the Klingon threat in a very interesting way. Of course the writers later shoehorn in that Martok was a changeling, and of course a Federation/Klingon war tracks with the Dominion wanting a weakened Alpha Quadrant for their planned war down the line. I just think that such game-changing events that happened in WotW happened far too fast. You can tell that the episode was designed to attract more viewers to the show.

I remember reading in the DS9 companion that the original plan was to have the season 4 episode Homefront as the season 3 cliffhanger, leading into the season 4 opener Paradise Lost. I always thought that direction would have been much more beneficial, much more Dominion-orientated. Then it would have been fair to compare to the B5 finales, I think.

In all fairness though, who knows what kind of show we would have ended up with? No Worf probably, and a lesser Klingon presence. More changeling paranoia? By season 5, I think the writers had pulled things back on track, in spite of the Klingon diversion, and were using it to their full advantage.

Going back to my original point then, Way of the Warrior was a very good episode. It changes the landscape well, if too abruptly. It certainly trumps B5 in terms of sets and special effects. It's not as well oiled as the B5 storytelling has been, but DS9 certainly makes it next season.

Kegg · November 4 2009, 04:14 PM

"The Way of the Warrior" remains one of the finest episodes of DS9, and certainly one of its best 'event' episodes. And that's not just because of the great pacing and sweeping scope of the narrative, it's something that works down to the memorable little character interactions (Garak and Quark's discussion about root beer, Garak remarking he'd shoot a man in the back, Quark saying he'll get out his gun to Odo before realising Rom's cannibalized it for spare parts)... there's very little about this that ain't great, really. It also has the added strength of a really solid ensemble performance, which B5 even at its best could never quite muster (Boxleitner is quite the ham, you know.)

However, when you do look at DS9's arcs vis-a-vis B5, that's where B5 comes off a little better as a whole. Ultimately aside from the bombast and sweeping story of this episode I'd have to agree with others that nothing really comes of making the Klingons villains again (while there are major consequences from the Centauri-Narn war and so on).

That said we get a few good episodes out of it, "Nor the Battle to the Strong" etc., but these episodes use the Klingons circumstantially rather than tout them as villains in the manner, say, late S5 builds up the Dominion. "Nor the Battle" could have used anyone - Cardassians, Dominion, Romulans, Talarians, Sheliak, whatever.

One of the nicer touches of this shift (aside from the huge bonus of getting Worf) was Dukat's brief dalliance as a would-be ally to our heroes.

Pemmer Harge · November 4 2009, 10:51 PM

Sykonee wrote:

While I do agree that Chrysalis had more 'shaking up' of its universe going on than WotW, it didn't have nearly the same amount of high production gloss as DS9 did. Which is understandable, since WotW is a TV-movie, whereas Chrysalis was simply a one-hour episode. That's what I was getting at by the bar being set higher: if you're going to make a major impact on the TV sci-fi landscape, WotW was now the level to reach.

Oh yes, that's quite true. TWotW is a big technical achievement.

On the arc issue, although at this stage DS9 hadn't yet embraced that type of storytelling to the extent that B5 had, I was really impressed by how Season 3 built up the Dominion threat and the panic it was causing in the Alpha Quadrant, even in episodes where it only played a background role like Defiant or Visionary. This stuff made Season 3 into more than the sum of its parts for me, which is why I like it more than Season 4. They did eventually do some cool stuff with the Klingons (Broken Link and Apocalypse Rising come to mind), but it took a long time and lacked the sense of structure that the Dominion arc had in Season 3. And there were no Romulans

.

Sykonee · November 4 2009, 11:41 PM

However, when you do look at DS9's arcs vis-a-vis B5, that's where B5 comes off a little better as a whole. Ultimately aside from the bombast and sweeping story of this episode I'd have to agree with others that nothing really comes of making the Klingons villains again (while there are major consequences from the Centauri-Narn war and so on)

Agreed, but initially following WotW, we didn't know that. As of October 3, 1995, it appeared that DS9 was primed to boldly go where no arced-based sci-fi show had gone before - building on their own universe, taking a few daring steps like B5 had the season before, and taking advantage of a higher budget. Of course, that didn't happen, so the Klingon stuff now just comes across as a superfluous detour, but that's only with the benefit of hindsight that we come to that conclusion.

Remember, the purpose of this thread is to recall (and perhaps even relive) what it was like when these shows were initially airing against one another, and how they compared to each other.

Pemmer Harge · November 5 2009, 12:19 AM

I guess things are different at the time. After all, I ended up very happy with how B5 Season 2 worked out, but that doesn't alter the fact that I didn't find Points of Departure a very good season opener. After watching the first four or five episodes of Voyager Season 6 I thought "Damn it, this show has finally become awesome!" Then those Irish holodeck episodes happened.

Seven Of Five · November 5 2009, 10:01 PM

Kegg wrote:

"The Way of the Warrior" remains one of the finest episodes of DS9, and certainly one of its best 'event' episodes. And that's not just because of the great pacing and sweeping scope of the narrative, it's something that works down to the memorable little character interactions (Garak and Quark's discussion about root beer, Garak remarking he'd shoot a man in the back, Quark saying he'll get out his gun to Odo before realising Rom's cannibalized it for spare parts)... there's very little about this that ain't great, really. It also has the added strength of a really solid ensemble performance, which B5 even at its best could never quite muster (Boxleitner is quite the ham, you know.)

Oh I totally agree. There are so many great momens throughout the episode. I did wonder if my post came off a bit too negative when I fired it off.

It is simply the change in political landscape that is a bit abrupt, I think.

Sykonee wrote:

Remember, the purpose of this thread is to recall (and perhaps even relive) what it was like when these shows were initially airing against one another, and how they compared to each other.

Yeah, my bad. I was trying to compare the DS9's big opener with the B5 finales, and got a bit caught up in what this thread hasn't gotten too yet.

Pemmer Harge wrote:

After watching the first four or five episodes of Voyager Season 6 I thought "Damn it, this show has finally become awesome!" Then those Irish holodeck episodes happened.

Too true. I thought the first four episodes were amazing, and I was so happy because DS9 had finished. Well, till the next few episodes aired...

Getting ahead of myself again.