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Old December 13 2012, 09:26 AM   #46
T'Girl
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Re: Best and worst examples of diplomacy in Star Trek

"Go away" didn't mean much coming from the Dominion either.
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Old December 13 2012, 01:43 PM   #47
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Re: Best and worst examples of diplomacy in Star Trek

RPJOB wrote: View Post
But there's no indication of any ships other than the Enterprise or the Valiant (50 years earlier) had ever visited the system. Everyone other than the Federation are apparently smart or respectful enough to acknowledge the Code 7-10 and stay away.
FOX: Captain, in the past twenty years, thousands of lives have been lost in this quadrant. Lives that could have been saved if the Federation had a treaty port here. We mean to have that port and I'm here to get it.

So there is likely more and more Federation traffic, civilian and military, going through the area and likely getting caught up in their feud.

To not make waivers for certain things is like saying it was okay for the Soviets to shoot down the KAL flight for encroaching on their air space back in 1983.

It's debatable whether the Federation went about trying to obtain the port in the right way, but as isolationist as the inhabitants were being I'm not sure there was another way.

YMMV.
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Old December 13 2012, 07:40 PM   #48
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Re: Best and worst examples of diplomacy in Star Trek

FOX: Captain, in the past twenty years, thousands of lives have been lost in this quadrant. Lives that could have been saved if the Federation had a treaty port here. We mean to have that port and I'm here to get it.
Not "in this system". TOS often played fast and loose with terms like quadrant and sector but he's defiantly not talking about a single star system.

And then there's this:

SAR: Look, Anan. (another flare on another screen)
ANAN: Yes, I see it. They were warned.
SAR: Just as it happened fifty years ago.

Not like it happened last week or last month or last year, 50 years ago i.e. The last time the Federation sent a ship to Eminiar VII. Whatever is causing the loss of life in the quadrant it doesn't appear to be the fault of Eminiar VII. Everyone but the Federation appears to be smart enough to stay away when they are warned.

And if the people of the system want to be isolationist, who are we to refuse their request? They put a barbed wire fence around their property, attached some "Keep Out" signs and we still insist on climbing over the fence just to be neighborly?
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Old December 13 2012, 07:46 PM   #49
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Re: Best and worst examples of diplomacy in Star Trek

RPJOB wrote: View Post
FOX: Captain, in the past twenty years, thousands of lives have been lost in this quadrant. Lives that could have been saved if the Federation had a treaty port here. We mean to have that port and I'm here to get it.
Not "in this system". TOS often played fast and loose with terms like quadrant and sector but he's defiantly not talking about a single star system.

And then there's this:

SAR: Look, Anan. (another flare on another screen)
ANAN: Yes, I see it. They were warned.
SAR: Just as it happened fifty years ago.

Not like it happened last week or last month or last year, 50 years ago i.e. The last time the Federation sent a ship to Eminiar VII. Whatever is causing the loss of life in the quadrant it doesn't appear to be the fault of Eminiar VII. Everyone but the Federation appears to be smart enough to stay away when they are warned.

And if the people of the system want to be isolationist, who are we to refuse their request? They put a barbed wire fence around their property, attached some "Keep Out" signs and we still insist on climbing over the fence just to be neighborly?
You seem to forget that there is another planet in the system called Vendikarr. We have no idea how many Federation craft they've brought down over the years. We have no idea how many civilian lives were lost.

And you completely avoided the question about the KAL flight that got shot down over Soviet airspace.
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Old December 13 2012, 08:05 PM   #50
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Re: Best and worst examples of diplomacy in Star Trek

I'm not ignoring Vendikar but we never went there in the episode. I'm sure of there had been hundreds of ships marked as destroyed there as opposed to the two Federation ships we heard of there would have been a mention of it.

In regard to the KAL flight, the Enterprise received a warning and chose to ignore it. They deliberately placed themselves in harms way in order to force a treaty port onto a planet that wanted nothing to do with the Federation. Also, American and the Soviet Union were engaged in an escalation of the cold war at that time (Pershing missiles in Europe, the beginnings of SDI, etc). The Soviets had good reason to be aware of unauthorized aircraft entering their airspace and flying over their military installations.

The two situations would be similar if KAL had received the warnings from the Soviets and had continued on their flight directly over a secret military installation. A better situation would be if we imagine a plane ignoring the order to land in the wake of 9/11 and instead continuing it's approach to JFK. Would a civilian flight be permitted to fly in American airspace if all other flights are grounded or would it be shot down for refusing to comply with an order given by the government of the country it's flying over?
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Old December 13 2012, 10:59 PM   #51
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Re: Best and worst examples of diplomacy in Star Trek

BillJ wrote: View Post
FOX: ... if the Federation had a treaty port here. We mean to have that port and I'm here to get it.
I hadn't before realized what the term "treaty port" referred to, it gives this episode a new feel. And paints the Federation of this time period in a different light.

Gunboat diplomacy.

So there is likely more and more Federation traffic, civilian and military, going through the area and likely getting caught up in their feud.
It isn't my impression that the two warring planets are the ones causing the loss of life generally in the area, they appear to be a pre-warp culture and incapable of venturing out to cause trouble in the local quadrant.

More likely there are local warp drive powers in the region, or pirates, or the Federation civilian ships are out in the middle of nowhere with no rescue when trouble springs up. The treaty port would be like the multiple army forts built during the American expansion westward, protect explorers, colonists, miners and traders from indigenous people.

To not make waivers for certain things is like saying it was okay for the Soviets to shoot down the KAL flight for encroaching on their air space back in 1983.
Hard to see the parallel.

I'm not sure there was another way.
Hmm, build a space station in open space, or in another star system, or on one of the outer planets/moons in the Eminiar/Vendikar star system, assuming there are any.

Having a base of operation on a class M planet make all kinds of sense, logistics to start. But there are more expensive options if the class M doesn't want your presence, or your business.


Last edited by T'Girl; December 13 2012 at 11:11 PM.
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Old December 13 2012, 11:18 PM   #52
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Re: Best and worst examples of diplomacy in Star Trek

The impression I got was that it was an area without a lot of already inhabited planets. The Federation was looking for a safe port for rescue, resupply, etc. There's nothing that says that the Eminians or Vendakarians were in any was responsible for the loss of any ships other than the Valiant 50 years earlier. If the Federation honestly though that the Eminian system was responsible for the loss of the ships they wouldn't be looking to establish a port of any kind. They'd be looking to put a stop to it.

Let's not forget that Robet Fox was hardly called to task for getting the Federation involved. The second ship in Generations that was carrying the refugees was called the S.S. Robert Fox. How many American registered ships are called the Benedict Arnold?

The portrayal of the Federation as this great benevolent force is a ret-con as well. It has a good side but there's also a darker side to it's foreign policy. The Enterprise ignored warnings about entering space claimed by others, the First Federation and the Melkot for example. In The Corbomite Maneuver Kirk even said that they were out there to "explore" regardless of the warning of the buoy, Vanguard had the Enterprise meeting with the Melkot, not for peaceful contact, but to gather powerful allies to fight the Shedai.
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Old December 14 2012, 07:12 PM   #53
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Re: Best and worst examples of diplomacy in Star Trek

RPJOB wrote: View Post
Let's not forget that Robet Fox was hardly called to task for getting the Federation involved. The second ship in Generations that was carrying the refugees was called the S.S. Robert Fox.
With the intent of obtaining a treaty port, Ambassador Fox would have been acting on behalf of the Federation Council. Not being "called to task" would mean that he was sucessful in getting the Federation it's port facility, perhaps on both planets.

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Old December 15 2012, 03:15 AM   #54
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Re: Best and worst examples of diplomacy in Star Trek

Of course, the S. S. Robert Fox isn't a big, flashy Starfleet vessel. It's a transport. Perhaps the Eminiar situation went to hell and the COuncil realized that they couldn't scapegoat Fox for following their (wrongheaded) orders. Perhaps he didn't even survice if the war went hot. The Federation held a memorial service. Said a few nice words. Presented his widow with a flag and names a new but relatively minor transport vessel after him. A nice ass covering ceremony.
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