Explosive bolts could simply be used to sever the structural connections, with the force of the explosion absorbed by the girders themselves. After that, the separated sections would simply drift apart on their own residual momentum. Of course, if sufficient power remained then the usual antigrav systems could be used to widen the gap. Either way, I agree that an emergency manoeuvre like this ought to be possible in a minimal power scenario. FWIW, if not explosive bolts then what did you (Blssdwlf) have in mind for this or emergency saucer separation? I suppose it could be something like the E-D?
From the episode it sounded like they were rendered unable to maneuver with no energy except for whatever battery power that allowed them life support and the ability to watch the battle below. Unlike "That Which Survives" or perhaps even "The Apple", it didn't seem like the Enterprise could use her impulse engines to blast away to safety once the nacelles were severed. Stuck in orbit with severed nacelles would require still a bit of power afterward (which they didn't have) to move them away. They couldn't just let the nacelles drop out of orbit to detonate in the atmosphere or on the ground (remember "Obsession" and antimatter explosions). With no power to move the ship away it didn't sound like they had power to move the nacelles away either. Explosively sending them away at any significant speed would probably have looked like something out of "Wrath of Khan" and that killed alot of Reliant's crew...
Regarding the "venting of energy" concept, TNG repeatedly makes use of venting the warp plasma when there are engine problems. VOY then insinuates that warp plasma is a complex commodity that may have characteristics beyond being a channel/conveyor for the energies released by the annihilation chamber, but OTOH is a stable thing you can keep in a jar - not something you'd need to constantly "produce" with a warp core. Quite possibly, then, warp plasma constantly circulates in a closed loop, getting energized by the core, and one way to get rid of excess energy is to spray it off the ship with the plasma. It's a short-term solution (and indeed something the computer triggers in a split second, with the crew only reacting afterwards), a way to give the core some time margin for a shutdown when the normally "hungry" systems suddenly go offline and refuse to consume the energies. It won't help in "Hollow Pursuits" where a shutdown is the thing they can't do. So it wouldn't help in those TOS situations where the core is producing energy against the wishes of its masters. But "Savage Curtain" sounds like a pure containment problem. That problem would be limited to the antimatter tanks (and the core, if Kirk's ship had one) if the flow of energy to the nacelles (via plasma, not necessarily via the pumping of antimatter into them) could be cut and sealed (the nacelles "disengaged"), after which the antimatter in the tanks and the possible core could be "jettisoned". Or then more like a shuttle SRB separation, an orderly and extremely low-energy process where tiny explosives and gentle miniature rockets provide idiotproof separation. I still think the jettisoning of the nacelles wasn't on the agenda, though. Jettisoning the antimatter is what they'd really want - and even if it were in the nacelles, it no doubt would have an ejection method that sidestepped the problems of moving those giant cigars. (Say, perhaps just the forward domes would pop out, revealing themselves to be containment spheres?) Timo Saloniemi
The problem seems to be that there was a fundamental shift in the way warp drives (and power generation in general) were meant to work from TOS/TAS to TMP and then following onto TNG. Originally, I got the impression, that most of the time we saw Scotty etc in some kind of saucer based engineering, and therefore what I assumed was engineering. The tapery thing was meant to be some sort of reactor, although it was not clear what one. The warp nacelles were variously self contained pods (carried over to TAS) with all the scary M/AM reactions going on there for protection. Scotty went up the Jeffries Tube to play with the M/AM reactor, presumably climbing up the pylons (which I always assumed the angle was supposed to imply). Dilithium was something to do with the power, but it was never explicitly said on TOS/TAS what. I got the impression it was something to do with converting the scary M/AM power to power usable on the rest of the ship - analogous to the electricity coming from the power station being stepped down and then phase converted to the mains you plug your hairdryer into. Then, in TMP you had the warp core, clearly implying that this is where the M/AM reaction takes place. Soley from onscreen, you can't clearly say how this relates to the impulse, but it is clearly linked to the rest of the ships power. When it broke in WOK the mains power went off and they had to go to auxillury (either fusion, so a separate impulse system or at least one capable of working indipendantly of the warp drive, a secondary fusion reactor, or batteries of some kind). The warp core had something to do with the side booth, clearly channeling some high powered plasma, which is where the dilithium was? So, again, dilithum appeared to convert powerful warp energy to ships main power. However, Spock needed to play with this to make the warp drive work again, so it was also a key component of the warp drive too. By TNG, the warp core housed the dilithium. Matter came from the top, anti-matter from the bottom. Dilithium sort of contained the reaction, which shot out the red pipes to the side, firing the high energy plasma to the nacelles. Something (after the main engineering set presumably but before the nacelles, or perhaps in the suicide room) converted this to mains power, didn't it? All following series seemed to follow the this TNG model, where the dilithium was part of the warp drive intrinsically. The warp core was a big, dangerous, usually about to explode set of components in the heart of the ship. The warp nacelles were just 'propellers'. So, to me, the warp drive components (reactor, coils, space time rectifier, flux capacitor, vending machine etc. etc.) in TOS/TAS were all in the nacelles. Power was siphoned off for the rest of the ship using the dilithium. In the TMP refit, largely the same model, but the new nacelles were more powerful, so the new design of reactor wouldn't fit. Power was still siphoned using dilithium. In TNG - ENT, the reactor was still separate from the warp engines, but dilithium was now a crucial component of the warp reactor. It could be that the siphoning happened in the warp core from the dilithium, or the paradigm could be completely different. For completeness, Into Darkness shows that in the Alt-U, the Enterprise uses a spare Death-Star reactor. Getting back on topic, all this does nothing to suggest that there is not a saucer based engineering, and a warp engineering 'downstairs', which is how is see it. Come TMP, they started off with a light refit, which turned into a major redesign with a new external warp reactor, meaning they combined both engineerings into the one we saw.
The trivial solution IMHO is to accept the dialogue claim that ENT warp is identical to TNG warp, and then postulate that nothing changed at any point. Nothing except the placement and number of the components, that is. ENT: The single dilithium focus requires a massive armored chamber looking like a big boiler. The humble output goes to the nacelles on relatively lightweight plasma leads. Matter and antimatter stores are safely tucked out of sight. There is little chance of accessing the dilithium between dockyard layovers. TOS: The dilithium foci, at least six available in sequence or perhaps in parallel ("Mudd's Women"), serve what is called a single antimatter reactor ("That Which Survives"). The dilithium can now be accessed inflight via a dumbwaiter system, its cars (with the articulation frames) accessed via a big radlock jutting out of the floor of one of the engineering rooms. The system takes the dilithium to heavily armored chambers belowdecks. Plasma leads are now more substantial, perhaps visible through the grilles. Antimatter is stored in a big pod whose ejection is a plot point in "That Which Survives". There is a separate room where drained dilithium can be re-energized, the energizing enabling its use in regulating annihilation. Most of the dilithium available at the time is small industrial fragments, embedded in paddle-like matrices, but natural crystals can also be used on frontier starships, and these robust engines are "multifuel", indeed sometimes said to be taking in "lithium" without specifying di-, tri- or para-. TOS movies: The dumbwaiter system terminal is now surrounded by a secondary, room-sized radlock. Re-energizing of dilithium is possible in situ, in main energizers. The powerful reactor (with single or multiple dilithium crystals, we don't know) is still out of sight belowdecks, and the plasma leads shine brightly in a facility that is only accessed during test flights and training cruises, even then requiring protective clothing just in case. TNG: Finally, the actual reactor can be brought out of its armored concealment, thanks to advances in forcefield technology. It now sits right next to the shirtsleeves control room, and the plasma leads also make a brief appearance before diving into the ship's structures. Dilithium can be accessed directly, and not just energized but also recrystallized at will. Thanks to UFP expansion, large natural lumps are easily available and in common use, even though finding the best facet takes adjustment expertise not even the CEO necessarily possesses, hence the need for Leland T. Lynches. In every case, "main" engineering features expansive industrial facilities in addition to the sterile control rooms, although in the small ENT ship these are of humbler size, and in the advanced TNG vessel they are compacted so that whatever human access still is needed can be conducted via crawlways through the machinery, not walkways over and around it. The occasional bottomless shaft or precarious catwalks still exists, of course. But with hyronalyn aerosols available, there's little harm in taking a bit of exercise in those even without protective clothing. Timo Saloniemi
If the crystal "suicide room" is only accessible via the room that is not normally occupied and where radsuits are advisable, isn't that a bit of a step back from the TOS design, which had the crystals delivered direct to the shirtsleeves room?
If the crystals are now able to be accessed in more situations with less prep time, that could be considered progress. These new access situations just require more protection. It gives more flexibility during emergencies. We would need to assume that Spock would not have been able to make that repair during TOS.
I rather feel the facility with the glowing plasma conduits is shirtsleeves "at your own risk", and Scotty took no risks in TMP (after the engines were started), and allowed the cadets to take none in ST2. But it's also a place that needs to be accessed relatively seldom, and the big bad sliding door seen closing in ST:TMP typically is kept closed for the duration of the journey, with nobody inside. And fooling around with dilithium is something only done between journeys, when the engines are shut down. The same goes for the torpedo room... It's capable of automated ops, and those in fact take place at much faster pace than the manual ops seen in ST2, but priming it for auto-ops after long idling still takes personnel. Would there be a radiation hazard there, from antimatter loading? Hopefully not. One wonders, though... The extra rad-shelter around the pedestal only appears after TMP. Perhaps the old lady suffered one mission too many, and her original, very TOS-like underfloor dilithium dumbwaiter became so unreliable that the extra layer of protection had to be improvised around its radlock? Timo Saloniemi
I figured that the dilithium pedestal room was moved up to be more accessible in TWOK versus perhaps hidden away in another room below. This would be analogous to how the dilithium-main energizer room was separate in "The Alternative Factor" and then moved below one of the engineering rooms in the later seasons with the crystal converter assembly able to slide up for access. As to the radiation suits in TMP onwards, I think the change could be attributed to newer technology that come with a new set of radiation problems. For example, in TOS, although they had people in environment suits wandering around the corridors you didn't see Scotty donning one to go climb into the antimatter area in "That Which Survives". But we know the engines are a new design in TMP so it is very possible that it emits a new kind of radiation requiring the rapid wearing of a radiation suit in case of a leak where in TOS that wasn't an issue. IMHO, the lithium/dilithium use in TOS+Movies are radically different (or not even in the same continuity) as TNG+ since lithium/dilithium is not used to regulate the m/am reaction. Unlike in TNG, the crystals are not part of the m/am reaction (they are separate from the reactor in "The Alternate Factor", "Elaan of Troyius", "That Which Survives", "TWOK) but does their magic with m/am energy downstream where they get charged up like super capacitors ("The Alternative Factor". They can be bypassed to take power directly from the m/am energy but only if the crystal converter assembly is undamaged ("Mudd's Women", "Elaan of Troyius"). And in my thinking, the crystals help regenerate additional antimatter fuel based on it's special antimatter abilities in "The Alternative Factor".
Possibly. I just don't see the "Alternative Factor" assembly having anything at all to do with the ship's power production, as the theft of two plus two crystals from there has zero effect on the ship's immediate power status. The idea that this would merely be a recuperating facility, with mere longterm effects if the crystals were not returned to the actual engine, helps keep the setup static. As for the mention of "antimatter" in that episode, it sounds more like an analogy than an actual reference to the substance used for powering the starships and for blowing up space monsters. Spock only evokes the idea of an antimatter universe after Kirk says "I don't follow you", after all. Timo Saloniemi
I wouldn't think that we would see any ill effect of ejecting the two crystals (and two previous) because the ship was not running at full power. As far as we can tell the ship's remaining crystals and bypass circuits (remember they have those from "Mudd's Women" and "Elaan of Troyius") prevented any obvious power status problems in "The Alternative Factor". It was called an "energizer" and those are tied to power generation in TOS/TOS Movies so it makes sense that the energizer room here used the crystals to charge and discharge to power the ship. The episode calls out that the crystals could be used to detect physical warps in space from the antimatter universe (and also charged up to open a doorway thru to crossover). It wouldn't be too hard to speculate that the crystals magic properties are not only to charge and discharge massive amounts of energy but also to regenerate power by providing more antimatter than put in. Funny enough, this was what happened in TNG's "Booby Trap". Probably the only time a TNG writer purposefully or accidentally used something from TOS
Or then we can decide that the term is not related to power generation, but purely to the "priming" of dilithium, either in a separate dilithium hospital or then in situ. The term is only loosely related to things such as warp power, after all. Say, in "Doomsday Machine", main energizers fail (among other things), but Decker doesn't think that this would mean loss of capabilities such as warp power or weapons power; he has to be separately informed of that. The loss of two plus two crystals goes unnoticed at first. Surely power loss, no matter how slight, would be observed on various consoles and applications across the ship. But the keyword with the events at this energizer is "unnoticed"... Even the lack of personnel other than the two specialists speaks of a special facility unrelated to Scotty's usual line of work. Indeed - for a given value of "antimatter" which I want to carefully separate from the usual one, as the "antimatter" Lazarus certainly didn't blow up when walking on the matter decks of the Enterprise! Hmh? "Extending the matter-antimatter energy supplies" doesn't necessarily mean getting more antimatter, or matter. What LaForge seems to be doing is getting more energy out of the existing matter and antimatter supplies, even if by spending more of it per time unit (that is, getting more power, but also more efficiently). This gives him the ability to sustain shields, which appears to be the key to maintaining energy (as opposed to having it be sucked out). Providing/creating antimatter doesn't appear in explicit Trek dialogue. Even reactivating deactivated antimatter happens to other people: in "DDM", the Enterprise is never said to lose her antimatter potency (even if the failure to use photon torpedoes or warp might hint in that direction), unlike the Constellation. Naturally, Starfleet gets antimatter from somewhere, and any encounter with a natural supply takes our heroes by surprise, so there would appear to be a clever machine involved. Does any of the starships have one aboard? One'd think this would have been discussed in VOY "Deadlock", but it very much was not. Timo Saloniemi
I'm late to the party and haven't read all the posts, so forgive me if I cover old ground, but here’s my two quatloos worth in a nutshell. The second/third season engine room is in the secondary hull per “Day of the Dove”. The first season engine room may or may not be the same as the above? If not it, may be the impulse engine room in the saucer? The anti-matter fuel is stored (and possibly generated) in the nacelles/pods. The engines are also in the nacelles/pods but… “The” reactor location is not clear, but is apparently near the dilithium converter assembly? TOS is “gasp” inconsistent as to how many M/A-M reactors are on board, Spock says there is more than one, per “By any other Name”; Scott says there is only one, per “That which Survives” and “Elaan of Troyius”. And now for some brief speculation… Note that Spock does not specify that these are “warp drive” reactors, only hinting that they are somehow related to propulsion, so if we don’t want to ignore Spock’s statement altogether, there is a way we can reconcile these two seemingly contradictory positions. Is it possible that under normal operating conditions the impulse engines are also powered by a single dedicated A/M reactor? Since we know that matter/antimatter fuel is stored in the nacelles, it follows that in the event of emergency saucer separation, use of the A/M fuel for the impulse reactor would be out of the question, and a switch to the next best thing -a dedicated fusion reactor- would be needed in such a scenario. Therefore what we saw in “The Doomsday Machine” where fusion energy was used for impulse power would only be the third or “tertiary” emergency back-up system, since in this episode the “general dampening field” created by the planet killer effectively “deactivated” the anti-matter supply, rendering it useless as a fuel source in any case? Supporting evidence that this could indeed be the case comes from the fact that “The Doomsday Machine” is (I think) the only episode in TOS where depleting the impulse fuel was ever a concern. normally the impulse engines would have a much larger and possibly continuously generated supply of A-M fuel to run off of. This interpretation gives us some wiggle room to consider the possibility that, in addition to the impulse fusion reactor, the matter/antimatter reactor system in TOS consists of 2 reactor cores or chambers, 1 in the engineering hull and 1 in the impulse deck, thus both related to propulsion. So this way, multiple anti-matter reactors can be onboard -as Spock indicates, but still only one warp drive A/M reactor -as Scotty indicates. They are both correct! So what this gives us is a minimum of three “reactors” on board, and lo and behold, that’s the exact number mentioned elsewhere in the series! An added advantage of this line of reasoning is that it overcomes a long standing objection to the possibility that the two versions of the engine room we saw in the series are actually two different locations, one in the secondary hull for warp drive, and the other in the primary hull for the impulse engines. That objection being, that both versions have the same tube chamber adjacent to them, which is presumably the matter/antimatter reactor (or a portion of it). But if impulse engines run off antimatter as well, then now we can see that it would make sense after all for there to be an identical tube camber in both engine rooms! Perhaps the crucial difference between the two A/M reactors is that only the warp drive reactor uses dilithium to boost its power output? That’s all I got for now, make of it what you will.
Having the main energizers offline doesn't necessarily mean the ship would lose power. Remember they can and have been bypassed with the built-in bypass circuits. In Decker's case, he wanted to continue the attack and even with the loss of the main energizers he could still get some shots off with the charged phaser banks. He didn't appear to care that warp drive was down because he wasn't intending to maneuver away from the DDM. Spock, OTOH, probably wanted to make clear in the logs their situation so he could remove Decker if he didn't break off the attack. Why would the power loss be noticed if the ship wasn't operating at full power in the first place? In anycase, the first time the wink out effect occurred drained the crystals and Masters made a report of the crystal status (because they probably noticed all of them drained), the first time the crystals were stolen they were alerted to the attack and Kirk notes in his log the ship can't operate at full power. The last set that was stolen the ship went to a critical alert. In all three cases, the ship knew something happened to the crystals so I don't think your case that the ship didn't notice holds water. Yes, in Lazarus case it meant only him touching the anti-Lazarus would have been bad. I get the intention, but the dialogue and even your comment above point to LaForge increasing the rate of use of their m/am fuel to paradoxically extend their m/am energy supplies. Use more fuel and you should reduce your supplies even accounting for the shield drain.LEAH: Theoretically, yes. The system should be able to accept more reactants at a faster rate of injection. LAFORGE: Captain, we've found a way to extend the matter-antimatter energy supplies. It wouldn't be explicit in TNG and later series because they set a specific technology tree for themselves which didn't correspond to TOS. We do get glimpses that the ship's main power "regenerates" and could be "forever" in "The Mark of Gideon". In "The Doomsday Machine", we're told that the Constellation's AM was deactivated when the shields failed and generators were knocked out. It could well be that the Enterprise suffered a similar failure when her energizers went out after the shields were taken down. Theoretically in TOS, expediting her warp drive repair they could then regenerate her lost antimatter. In TNG+ there way of replenishing their antimatter supply appears to be from their bussard collectors as hinted at in "Liaisons". As I noted before, I don't think the TOS/TOS Movies are in the same tech continuity as TNG+. In TOS, going a few thousand or million light years doesn't ever get a fuel problem mention whereas it's a big deal in the other series. For it not to be a problem in TOS, it would make sense that the warp engine "regeneration" is from getting m/am fuel from somewhere and the TOS dilithium conveniently can be used for such purposes.
Because there would be loss. Even if minimal, it would be measurable, an instrument would duly indicate this, and many people all across the ship would notice. If the dilithium (we see) were off the power loop altogether (and potentially the remaining undrained dilithium were handling the power needs), there would be no loss, and only the people directly involved in the theft would notice, just as we see happening. The point is that if the dilithium did produce or regulate power, its draining or theft would have shown up as a power loss - but this very specifically does not happen, and alerts only come after a noticeable delay and for unrelated reasons. That the ship is on an especially low power mode is speculation - from the very start, Kirk says they need "full crystal power" or they are going to crash. But clearly they are not having "full crystal power" at that point, either, nor after the thefts. So we're left to wonder whether they had "full crystal power" for the brief while between the reamplification being finished and the first theft occurring. I doubt that - Kirk didn't want the crystals for power applications at that point, but for testing in a chamber of some sort, no doubt to see if Lazarus' claims had any validity. But that brings up the other interesting thing about this episode: that the crystals are being moved from location to location, for different purposes and applications. Not "main" power, though. The power Kirk and Odona would need could regenerate by consuming main power supplies. And anything would be forever, including power and supplies, for the two castaways (castaboards?). Timo Saloniemi
In the first wink out, people noted the loss and that's why you have Masters checking in with Kirk. The other times the ship was alerted to a situation to the dilithium as it was happening so if it was a problem they would've noticed. If not then they could of been idling those crystals. Or if just like in "Elaan of Troyius" they were not using the crystals in the power loop until they needed the power. They wouldn't have noticed a problem with the crystals until they were about to fire up the warp engines. Remember in "The Alternative Factor" the Enterprise is in orbit and wasn't in a combat stance with shields and weapons active. Already commented to above but I don't agree with that point simply because the only times we've seen the "power loss" are in high energy use situations and in the cases you point to in "The Alternative Factor" they either would have already noted it because they were already aware of the loss or not using enough power to notice the loss or in an undamaged state could bypass the loss. Or more likely the loss of full crystal power meant that the ship was on her reserves or bypassed the crystals to allow them to charge up. We're only aware of one requested move - from energizer to experimentation chamber to test. The crystals had already been reamplified before Lazarus steals the first pair so that would mean the energizer we see them in is already being used for powering the ship. This makes sense that they can recharge and discharge from the energizer instead of physically running the crystals from a separate recharging station and back in the time that Kirk or Scotty calls for full power. Well we know only the warp engines regenerate and the impulse systems do not so that's main power being regenerated forever Also remember Kirk gave a more finite duration when it came to food supplies versus the forever of their power situation.
Maybe an aside, but it seems almost certain that Starfleet has antimatter production facilities. Now is there anything canonically that a starship can manufacture its own antimatter?
Not sure. Here are some quotes that might give a hint: TAS: "More Tribbles, More Troubles":SPOCK: Captain, we have been hit by a kind of projected stasis field. Our matter-antimatter generators are disabled. We are paralysed. TNG: "Liaisons":BYLETH: What is the mass flow rate of the antimatter replenishment stream to the containment pods? VOY: "Dark Frontier":MAGNUS: We have to keep moving. If we take the replicators offline and run environmental systems at half power, we can go another twenty light years before refuelling. ERIN: We should refuel now. The nearest dilithium is in an asteroid field just ten days from here.